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mishlert
Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Location: On the 3rd rock from the sun
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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 Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Did you also know that there is a growing number of privately owned prisons? Did you also know that they trade on NYSE? They are going to get those beds filled- who will tell them (stockholders) what they are doing is wrong? |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, it is an outrage. What is even more outrageous is a Brit program smugly playing it for laughs. Perhaps next week the program could focus on how many working class kids' lives in Liverpool or wherever have been blighted. That would be good for a few yucks. |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Yes, it is an outrage. What is even more outrageous is a Brit program smugly playing it for laughs. Perhaps next week the program could focus on how many working class kids' lives in Liverpool or wherever have been blighted. That would be good for a few yucks. |
I'm American and don't consider their discussion here outrageous whatsoever. They are bringing attention to a serious issue that's far too underreported in the U.S. They may be talking about it lightly, but there is a seriousness underlying that is important. More than anything I'm embarrassed because what I see is a bunch of comics reduced to straight faces when presented with the magnitude of the problem. Much like John Stewart or Stephen Colbert, they are using comedy to point out serious problems with the governments of the world. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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I see no problem with this. Prisons are expensive. Why divert money better used for medicine, housing, and research to pampering murderers and thieves? It's a wise financial choice and should be expanded.
They're not slaves. They're prisoners. Slaves are those whose rights are denied them; Prisoners are those who through their own conscious efforts had surrendered their rights.
Don't want to be made to do a cake job, even when your sole daily activities are staring at walls and cradling soap for dear life? Don't become a criminal. |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:31 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
I see no problem with this. Prisons are expensive. Why divert money better used for medicine, housing, and research to pampering murderers and thieves? It's a wise financial choice and should be expanded.
They're not slaves. They're prisoners. Slaves are those whose rights are denied them; Prisoners are those who through their own conscious efforts had surrendered their rights.
Don't want to be made to do a cake job, even when your sole daily activities are staring at walls and cradling soap for dear life? Don't become a criminal. |
This isn't about funding of prisons, it's about how we treat our citizens. We have the highest imprisonment rate in history, yet we do not see any reduction in crime rate. Rather, we see an actual correlation with our prison state and increased crime.
Beyond that, a large percentage of imprisoned people in our country are in on minor drug offenses. You can say anything you want about choices, but our last three Presidents have all smoked marijuana. The difference between them and many of these "criminals" is that they weren't caught.
One of the biggest problems here is that the privatization of prisons has created a massive economic source for companies that are profiting off of near forced labor. Why not simply fund our criminal system through these efforts rather than putting the money into the pockets of corporations that will simply turn around and put that money right back into lobbying efforts for stricter laws and call it community outreach.
I'm so sick of people like you who preach such self-righteousness. I'm sure you've never broken a law in your entire life  Educate yourself and step down from your soapbox. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Stephen Fry is unimpeachable in my esteem.
They are just using humor to bring to light, what is a fairly appalling state of affairs. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
I see no problem with this. Prisons are expensive. Why divert money better used for medicine, housing, and research to pampering murderers and thieves? It's a wise financial choice and should be expanded.
They're not slaves. They're prisoners. Slaves are those whose rights are denied them; Prisoners are those who through their own conscious efforts had surrendered their rights.
Don't want to be made to do a cake job, even when your sole daily activities are staring at walls and cradling soap for dear life? Don't become a criminal. |
Life is much more complex than "don't become a criminal". For real. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
I see no problem with this. Prisons are expensive. Why divert money better used for medicine, housing, and research to pampering murderers and thieves? It's a wise financial choice and should be expanded.
They're not slaves. They're prisoners. Slaves are those whose rights are denied them; Prisoners are those who through their own conscious efforts had surrendered their rights.
Don't want to be made to do a cake job, even when your sole daily activities are staring at walls and cradling soap for dear life? Don't become a criminal. |
Life is much more complex than "don't become a criminal". For real. |
There are those who break the law and those who do not. Do not attack people, do not kill people, don't rape people, don't screw minors, don't molest children, don't rob, mug, or steal from people.
It isn't hard. It isn't magical. Criminals choose to either go on probation, go to prison, or die, depending upon their conscious activity.
Life really is as simple as "don't become a criminal" for 99% of people in prison. The 1% are either mistakenly innocent or insane.
There is nothing strange about high incarceration rates in the U.S. Here we actually enforce our laws. Here we have more than 25 year sentences, unlike Europe and Her imitators.
Let's not throw a pity party for criminals. You have to work on the inside as just as you do on the outside. It's not vacation, it's punishment. |
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bassist33
Joined: 07 Jul 2009
Location: Mok-dong, Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I find you ignorant to the core. Sure, you probably consider yourself a fairly intelligent person, but it is most likely this unfaltering belief in your ideals and understandings that prevents you from having any true rational discourse within yourself. You see life as very black and white, but it's not.
Perhaps a psychological examination of criminal activity would lead you to understand the complexity of life's situations. Perhaps you could consider that the only thing separating you from one of these criminals is something as simple as an emotional reaction to something significant or a set of laws that haven't been passed banning something you enjoy.
Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps imprisonment is not a solve-all for every criminal and that it in fact increases criminal tendencies in minor offenders? Have you ever thought that our nation's stigma and hiring practices towards criminals often forces these people back into crime? Do you think that there is a chance that forced labor in prisons was lobbied for by the private companies who own them and was in fact not put into place to help our country but to pad the pockets of these companies?
Perhaps many of us are lucky that being a bigot isn't illegal or our prison populations would really soar. Sorry to be such a jerk, but there are a whole lot of those representing the United States these days on both sides of the aisle, and they're driving the world into a wall. |
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RufusW
Joined: 14 Jun 2008
Location: Busan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bassist33 wrote: |
| One of the biggest problems here is that the privatization of prisons has created a massive economic source for companies that are profiting off of near forced labor. |
Exactly. Forced labor shouldn't be allowed in prison because it creates an incentive for the justice system to produce more inmates and delay releases.
Criminals lose some rights, but shouldn't lose all rights. They're still humans. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| bassist33 wrote: |
| I find you ignorant to the core. Sure, you probably consider yourself a fairly intelligent person, but it is most likely this unfaltering belief in your ideals and understandings that prevents you from having any true rational discourse within yourself. You see life as very black and white, but it's not. |
Thank you for the adhominen, emotional knee-jack discourse from within yourself. Disagreeing with people is a social skill. After all, you don't see life as very black and white, no?
| Quote: |
| Perhaps a psychological examination of criminal activity would lead you to understand the complexity of life's situations. Perhaps you could consider that the only thing separating you from one of these criminals is something as simple as an emotional reaction to something significant or a set of laws that haven't been passed banning something you enjoy. |
Psychology is irrelevant. If one is mentally unable to abide societies laws then that person is criminally insane. If one's emotional reactions results in a felony then that person is criminally unstable. If something one enjoys becomes a crime then they should cease doing it immediately and seriously reconsider their choices on election day.
Simply because the law is inconvenient for some and some have trouble controlling themselves does not mean that it is acceptable to break the law. This is a democracy -- don't like the law? Do something about it. Simply ignoring the law and hoping it will go away is a waste of tax payer money.
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| Have you ever stopped to consider that perhaps imprisonment is not a solve-all for every criminal and that it in fact increases criminal tendencies in minor offenders? |
Why, yes, I have, thank you for asking. How very considerate of you. Pray tell, friend, at what point have I indicated otherwise? Unless, of course, you're implying that in reality prison is the most common solution. If you've got a better solution, a plan to implement it, and any kind of empirical evidence to back up your new scheme then I and millions of Americans and every other nation in the world are all ears.
Don't think for a moment that you're the first person to have ever happened to notice that the system of imprisonment and reimprisonment is flawed. The problem is fixing it in a way acceptable for the majority of Americans -- most of whom possess enough responsibility and self-control to never have been convicted of a crime serious enough to require removal from society.
| Quote: |
| Have you ever thought that our nation's stigma and hiring practices towards criminals often forces these people back into crime? |
Gasp! Really? Have I ever thought of something as crazy as that? Prejudice against felons in hiring practices is a major problem. But most voting Americans don't see it this way. What's Obama's opinion of this problem? Your Governor's? Your state representative?
'Cause whining to me about it won't do you a lick of good.
And the notion that poor Jonny criminal had to carjack someone because he couldn't get a job is absurd. With that logic -- justifying criminal behavior because of a stigma against criminals -- you are blaming society for an individuals problems. Jonny doesn't need to rip off your stereo, he needs to apply for assistance like everyone else.
No more should you blame stigma for incarceration reticence than should you blame poverty for first time offenders. Assistance is available for the poor to feed and house them. Stealing is neither acceptable, wise, or even a solution to being poor. It is, however, a solution for personal freedom.
| Quote: |
| Do you think that there is a chance that forced labor in prisons was lobbied for by the private companies who own them and was in fact not put into place to help our country but to pad the pockets of these companies? |
I'd like to visit the America you live in. Private prisons are the very tiny minority. Voluntary employment is extremely common in state and federal prisons. There was no lobbying. It has been an accepted practice in this country for centuries.
And FYI, you've either been deceived or simply lack the intellectual rigor to actually investigate this extremely passionate crusade of yours because...
There is no forced labor in prisons in the US. All employment is voluntary and compensated. To force a convict to work is in itself a crime.
Again, I fail to see the problem. Certainly the system is flawed, but this is really a tiny, insignificant issue compared to the low quality of food, housing, the violence, and the gangs in prisons. I've never heard a single prisoner or ex-prisoner ever complain, from personal experience or the media, that he had a paying job in prison. Only those from outside the system seem to take issue with prisoners cutting a paycheck.
But that's not what this is about. This isn't about confronting a real problem. This is about me and other advocates of justice being "bigoted." This is about feeling morally superior to other people. This is about deluding oneself in order to bolster one's own self-worth.
Have fun with that. I assure you that, should you ever find yourself locked up, volunteering to stamp license plates for pay will be the least of your worries. |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
There are those who break the law and those who do not. Do not attack people, do not kill people, don't rape people, don't screw minors, don't molest children, don't rob, mug, or steal from people.
It isn't hard. It isn't magical. Criminals choose to either go on probation, go to prison, or die, depending upon their conscious activity.
Life really is as simple as "don't become a criminal" for 99% of people in prison. The 1% are either mistakenly innocent or insane.
There is nothing strange about high incarceration rates in the U.S. Here we actually enforce our laws. Here we have more than 25 year sentences, unlike Europe and Her imitators.
Let's not throw a pity party for criminals. You have to work on the inside as just as you do on the outside. It's not vacation, it's punishment. |
Actually, that's not true, there are an astonishing number of laws that go underenforced because we simply have too damn many of them, which makes it really convenient when we want to make bad people go away.
For instance, it is a violation of the civil code to play a compact audio disk at a volume where more than three people can hear it. You legally have no right to modify many electronics you buy with your own money. It is a criminal act to represent the flag of the United States in anything but it's complete form. You can be arrested for shooting someone who is breaking into your house, and forced to pay damages and restitution to them for the wounds they suffer while breaking in.
Just because it's a law doesn't mean it's right. If you weren't so busy licking the jack boot being ground into your face, you might learn that.
Aside from that, do you seriously not see an issue with people profiting off of criminal convictions? You don't think that maybe that might encourage some people to, oh I don't know, convict innocent people? But certainly that would never happen here, we're a nation of laws! |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| CapnSamwise wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
There are those who break the law and those who do not. Do not attack people, do not kill people, don't rape people, don't screw minors, don't molest children, don't rob, mug, or steal from people.
It isn't hard. It isn't magical. Criminals choose to either go on probation, go to prison, or die, depending upon their conscious activity.
Life really is as simple as "don't become a criminal" for 99% of people in prison. The 1% are either mistakenly innocent or insane.
There is nothing strange about high incarceration rates in the U.S. Here we actually enforce our laws. Here we have more than 25 year sentences, unlike Europe and Her imitators.
Let's not throw a pity party for criminals. You have to work on the inside as just as you do on the outside. It's not vacation, it's punishment. |
Actually, that's not true, there are an astonishing number of laws that go underenforced because we simply have too damn many of them, which makes it really convenient when we want to make bad people go away.
For instance, it is a violation of the civil code to play a compact audio disk at a volume where more than three people can hear it. You legally have no right to modify many electronics you buy with your own money. It is a criminal act to represent the flag of the United States in anything but it's complete form. You can be arrested for shooting someone who is breaking into your house, and forced to pay damages and restitution to them for the wounds they suffer while breaking in.
Just because it's a law doesn't mean it's right. If you weren't so busy licking the jack boot being ground into your face, you might learn that.
Aside from that, do you seriously not see an issue with people profiting off of criminal convictions? You don't think that maybe that might encourage some people to, oh I don't know, convict innocent people? But certainly that would never happen here, we're a nation of laws! |
Thank you for illustrating the reason why bad laws get passed: Disinformation.
Playing music loudly is disruption of the peace. This is not a felony.
There are substantial federal regulations surrounding any electronic device that is powerful enough to generate an electromagnetic field. If you alter your iPod such that it disables someone's pacemaker, you deserve to be litigated against for creating a device capable of manslaughter. How you could do this I don't know, but it is possible.
You may be sued in some states for defending yourself. This isn't the case in every state. You cannot be sent to prison for this if you were found to be acting in self defense. This is irrelevant.
I find your argument to be pointless. Are judges and juries being paid to convict people? It does happen, but this is corruption and it is illegal.
I find your argument to be pointless and irrelevant. Prison wardens and shareholders in private prisons do not arrest, try, and convict people.
Once again: THERE IS NO FORCED LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Every prisoner has a right to refuse to work. Every prisoner who does work is either compensated or a volunteer.
Keep insulting me for the mere fact that I don't share your delusion that prisons are super secret prison camps supported by a network of conspiring judges and police who are all making money from license plates. While you're at it, JFK was assassinated because he opposed prison slavery. |
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CapnSamwise
Joined: 11 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:19 am Post subject: |
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oh man you are just an onion of crazy!
| .38 Special wrote: |
Thank you for illustrating the reason why bad laws get passed: Disinformation.
Playing music loudly is disruption of the peace. This is not a felony.
There are substantial federal regulations surrounding any electronic device that is powerful enough to generate an electromagnetic field. If you alter your iPod such that it disables someone's pacemaker, you deserve to be litigated against for creating a device capable of manslaughter. How you could do this I don't know, but it is possible. |
Swing and a miss, it's actually a violation of copyright law, not. . . Whatever you seem to think I was talking about.
Also it is really not possible to do that with an iPod.
| .38 Special wrote: |
| You may be sued in some states for defending yourself. This isn't the case in every state. You cannot be sent to prison for this if you were found to be acting in self defense. This is irrelevant. |
No, that's wrong. Assault with a deadly weapon and manslaughter both carry prison sentences. "Self defense" is not an acceptable defense in every state, for instance, New Jersey holds that the homeowner is supposed to retreat as far as possible and call the police.
| .38 Special wrote: |
I find your argument to be pointless. Are judges and juries being paid to convict people? It does happen, but this is corruption and it is illegal.
I find your argument to be pointless and irrelevant. Prison wardens and shareholders in private prisons do not arrest, try, and convict people.
Once again: THERE IS NO FORCED LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Every prisoner has a right to refuse to work. Every prisoner who does work is either compensated or a volunteer.
Keep insulting me for the mere fact that I don't share your delusion that prisons are super secret prison camps supported by a network of conspiring judges and police who are all making money from license plates. While you're at it, JFK was assassinated because he opposed prison slavery. |
That's nice. 
Gosh you're so cute when you get worked up about things.  Are you also one of those nutters who thinks that a federal income tax is unconstitutional? Man, what other stupid little beliefs do you have? |
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