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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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| ...also, the imprisonment argument is partly based on the assumption that prison is not a place of torture. In fact, people are routinely raped, tortured and assaulted by other prison inmates every day. They are by themselves places of social revenge against the guilty, its just that society as a whole avoids direct responsibility for it by blaming the inmates. "We just build the prisons...we can't be held responsible for what the inmates do to each other." |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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How does this story turn into a discussion of the merits of death penalty vs. imprisonment?
It's just sick, plain and simple, and whatever happens, the defendents do not need to see the light of day for a very very long time, if not forever. How anyone can do what these people did is beyond me. It's bad enough that someone can cross a certain line, but that 6 people can brings up SERIOUS questions about humanity. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
| ...also, the imprisonment argument is partly based on the assumption that prison is not a place of torture. In fact, people are routinely raped, tortured and assaulted by other prison inmates every day. They are by themselves places of social revenge against the guilty, its just that society as a whole avoids direct responsibility for it by blaming the inmates. "We just build the prisons...we can't be held responsible for what the inmates do to each other." |
Out of all the basic arguments in favor of the death penalty in this thread so far, this is what I think is the only valid one. While you're greatly exaggerating how often prison rape, assault, and violence in general occur in the average US prison (especially if it's Pennsylvania), the only really decent argument for using the death sentence instead of imprisonment would be that the death sentence is actually less irrationally vindictive of a solution to the problem of violent crime than imprisonment. The idea shouldn't be to get revenge or make people suffer for violating others' rights-- it should be to prevent such violations from occurring by removing apparent violators from society (and there's solid evidence that attempts at "deterrence" through more vindictive types of punishment doesn't actually work in practice).
I personally don't see putting someone to death as necessarily wrong in the moral sense, particularly if it can be done so as to minimize or eliminate the suffering leading up to the execution. I'm a strong proponent of open euthanasia and assisted euthanasia rights, so that someone suffering from terrible illness or even just someone who decides he or she wants to opt out of living on principle alone doesn't have to try his or her luck with cruder makeshift techniques. Unless you believe there's some sort of continuity to existence beyond death despite the obvious association between the brain and consciousness, there shouldn't really be any objection to the act of killing itself so much as to any suffering that might lead up to death.
My unconventional philosophy on the morality of murder aside, the pragmatic rationale as to why the death penalty is a poor tool was addressed thoroughly in Furman v. Georgia, which established a couple major points:
1) The death penalty is rarely used, meaning that those who do get sentenced to it simply can't be any more deserving than the many others who receive life sentences for comparable crimes. Unless the penalty were mandated for all cases above a certain degree of severity (which would cheapen the severity of the sentence and deprive judges of discretion on cases mandating execution but warranting special treatment for unusual circumstances), it will necessarily continue to be the case that those who do get the death sentence will get it in large part for reasons unrelated to the severity of their crime.
2) Those sentenced to death will understandably appeal as much as possible. It's a fact that death row inmates cost the justice system more than those imprisoned for life do. If the death sentence costs more and the deterrence effect has been statistically proven to be bunk, then the only reason left for choosing the death sentence over life imprisonment is spite (and at the time of the case, this spite was pretty conclusively linked to racism).
Here's a link to the opinions on Furman v. Georgia:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0408_0238_ZC2.html
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| How does this story turn into a discussion of the merits of death penalty vs. imprisonment? |
Because a story of a relatively benign and likely innocent potential victim of the death penalty (remember the mentally disabled drug mule who got put down in China?) wouldn't inspire many to speak out in favor of the death penalty. A story of a truly heinous crime on the other hand will provoke plenty of impassioned calls for execution, while those who disagree with the death penalty on principle will feel compelled to explain how the death penalty is universally wrong regardless of how bad any particular crime may be (yet another time in this forum that I'm reminded of the ACLU's defense of neo-Nazis and the KKK on the principle that rights need to be upheld no matter how despicable the particular people whose rights are being violated might be). |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Honestly the humane thing to do would be to give them a quick and easy lethal injection because once the prison population hears the nature of their crime, the inmates will mete out their own brand of justice. |
On the contrary, either they will be just a few of hundreds, or the inmates will look up to them and they should not have any problems during their stay. |
You know not of the people who inhabit state pens in the US. These killers will not be looked up to, they will be crucified. |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Location: Prague
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| conrad, if you want to take these people out, I'll sign you into facebook or even here while you are taking care of business. Its an accepted alibi in criminal court. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| rocket_scientist wrote: |
| conrad, if you want to take these people out, I'll sign you into facebook or even here while you are taking care of business. Its an accepted alibi in criminal court. |
Like I said, Im opposed to the death penalty accept in very extreme circumstances and this is one of those extreme cases. I have three criterion for a death penalty to be carried out: 1. 100% assured of guilt (obviously) 2. Victims family must want it carried out 3. a family member of the victim has to carry out the actual killing. Take the state out of the equation as much as possible. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| conrad2 wrote: |
| Honestly the humane thing to do would be to give them a quick and easy lethal injection because once the prison population hears the nature of their crime, the inmates will mete out their own brand of justice. |
On the contrary, either they will be just a few of hundreds, or the inmates will look up to them and they should not have any problems during their stay. |
You know not of the people who inhabit state pens in the US. These killers will not be looked up to, they will be crucified. |
In general, murderers get a good deal of prison "respect"; of course, in the more heinous cases (such as this), there can be exceptions.
Jeffrey Dahmer, who killed 17 young men IIRC, was murdered in prison, but his murders involved sex as well, and as we all know, when it involves sex people go ballistic. (The cannibalism probably didn't help much either.  ) |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Jeffrey Dahmer, who killed 17 young men IIRC, was murdered in prison, but his murders involved sex as well, and as we all know, when it involves sex people go ballistic. (The cannibalism probably didn't help much either. ) |
Don't forget also that most of JD's victims were black males.
He was dead before he got through the gates. |
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rocket_scientist
Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Location: Prague
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Dahmer practiced fethish cannibalism, he didn't have a sit down dinner of human flesh. He just nibbled and licked a bit. He wasn't a real cannibal. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| rocket_scientist wrote: |
| Dahmer practiced fethish cannibalism, he didn't have a sit down dinner of human flesh. He just nibbled and licked a bit. He wasn't a real cannibal. |
You're right. He would've had more props if he was just a straight-up cannibal. The fact that he only mixed that in with his umpteen other perversions didn't garner him much affection from his future roomies. |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Jeffrey Dahmer, who killed 17 young men IIRC, was murdered in prison, but his murders involved sex as well, and as we all know, when it involves sex people go ballistic. (The cannibalism probably didn't help much either. ) |
Don't forget also that most of JD's victims were black males.
He was dead before he got through the gates. |
Wisconsin didnt have the death penalty and wasnt able to execute Dahmer. Usually perps of Dahmers ilk are put in solitary for their own safety ( see Charles Manson). Dahmer wasnt. His jailors knew exactly what they were doing. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Manner of Speaking wrote: |
Screw them.
If they place no value on human life, I see no reason why I should place any value on theirs. |
Death is an easy way out; that's why prisoners are often put on suicide watch to keep them from doing so. The longer one's sentence the more inviting the release of death looks, and especially so when placed under solitary confinement. Your bomb proposal is actually a pretty easy way out for the criminals - hold out for two minutes and that's it. Add to that the possibility of a false trial and I see no reason for capital punishment. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| conrad2 wrote: |
| Wisconsin didnt have the death penalty and wasnt able to execute Dahmer. Usually perps of Dahmers ilk are put in solitary for their own safety ( see Charles Manson). Dahmer wasnt. His jailors knew exactly what they were doing. |
If that were the case, they were guilty of some serious civil rights violations and should be fired.
Prisoners like Dahmer can also request to segregated from general population if they feel threatened. Don't know how rational the guy was, though.[/code] |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Prisoners like Dahmer can also request to segregated from general population if they feel threatened. Don't know how rational the guy was, though. |
No, he was definitely completely normal. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| locking them up for the rest of their lives, no parole, is enough. You can't bring back the retarded woman, but making them live and reflect on the rest of thier lives in prison is the best punishment. |
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