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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Location: Korea
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: The olympic luger who died |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
| If by universal consensus you mean the Canadian douchebag coach, then yeah. |
Who is a former German Olympian with a life-time of real luge experience, unlike you. And no, it's not only him. Several lugers have spoken on this subject, and it's also the opinion of the International Luge Association that driver error was the cause of the crash.
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| But refusing practice time to counties in a potentially deadly sport, well, that's sick and twisted. |
Refusing practice time? LOL. What do you think he was doing when he crashed? |
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crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: yes.
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: The olympic luger who died |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
| Let's ignore the 3-year Quebec degree comments and focus on the fact that Canada refused practice time for "foreigners," eh? Resulting in the death of a guy who was very afraid of the course because of the lack of allow practice time. |
What a piece of work you are. Can't get it through your thick head that Nodar was practicing when he died on a track that was known to be faster than ever? And you speak as if you have such high regard for humaniity yet you can't even refer to him by name? His name isn't 'dead guy', you imbecile.
I gots newz fer ya bub.
The Canadians did't REFUSE practice time. They just didn't give any extra.
It's a known tactic, but if it makes you feel better, keep pointing fingers.
Last edited by crescent on Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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Guess I have to restate everything thrice with the 3year degree crowd here, eh?
Yes he was on a practice run--- two days before the event. One does not train the same way two days before an event, as one would say...with two months training. Never been on a luge, but take any couse sport--auto racing, horse racing, skiing, etc. You don't go balls out til you know the course. The dead guy you're blaming for "drivers error" was not allowed by your federation to properly learn the course...with 1/10th the allowed practice time as the canadians were given. This whole blame the dead guy talk is frankly dumb guy talk. They teach argumentative logic in the 4th year at proper Universities. |
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crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: yes.
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
Guess I have to restate everything thrice with the 3year degree crowd here, eh?
Yes he was on a practice run--- two days before the event. One does not train the same way two days before an event, as one would say...with two months training. Never been on a luge, but take any couse sport--auto racing, horse racing, skiing, etc. You don't go balls out til you know the course. The dead guy you're blaming for "drivers error" was not allowed by your federation to properly learn the course...with 1/10th the allowed practice time as the canadians were given. This whole blame the dead guy talk is frankly dumb guy talk. They teach argumentative logic in the 4th year at proper Universities. |
Yes, perhaps you should have attended. No one is blaming Nodar. That's his name, Mr. Sensitive. The only one pointing their stubby little finger is you.
A recall of your 'argumentative logic':
First, it was the track, but then you found out it wasn't designed by Canada.
Next, it was the coach , but actually he was European.
Then, practice time, but actually every one was following the rules.
And now, you're a luge training expert? You couldn't even place the nationality of the coach, and designer of the track as being European?
It was his sixth training run, by the way... "The first sign Kumaritashvili was truly in trouble came only three seconds before the crash on Curve 13, the most perilous turn. His speed of 89.4 mph -- his best during six training runs on this track -- "
http://www.nola.com/sports/index.ssf/2010/02/olympic_luger_dies_after_crash.html |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Canada wanted to Own The Podium at the Vancouver Winter Olympic Games. This morning they can put their maple leaf stamp on something more instantly tangible: the nondescript little box carrying the lifeless body of Nodar Kumaritashvili back to his home in Bakuriani, Georgia.
Made in Canada, it should say. Made by the perversion of the Olympic movement for national gain; made by a culture of worthless aggrandisement and pride.
Tragic: Georgian luger Nodar Kumaritashvili
Kumaritashvili, a 21-year-old luge slider of limited experience, died because he was making only his 26th practice run on a dauntingly fast track that, it transpired, was technically defective.
Almost half of these runs had been from the women�s, novice or junior starting positions because Kumaritashvili wasn�t that good. His Canadian rivals, by contrast, have practised upwards of 300 times on the course on Blackcomb Mountain. That is what Owning The Podium is about. Cheating.
��
More from Martin Samuel...
�MARTIN SAMUEL: The less you see of David Beckham the better he gets...15/02/10
�EXCLUSIVE: Pompey rescue mission - Premier League set to hand out lifeline11/02/10
�MARTIN SAMUEL: When celebrity exiles try to lord it back home11/02/10
�Martin Samuel: Zola, nice bloke, but as useful as Bungle in fight to the death09/02/10
�MARTIN SAMUEL: Judge Rio on what he does now, not what he did then07/02/10
�Chelsea 2 Arsenal 0: Deadly Didier Drogba rifles Blues to the summit as John Terry stands tall to wreck Gunners' title bid 07/02/10
�MARTIN SAMUEL: Never mind morals, sacking of Terry was stand for England05/02/10
�MARTIN SAMUEL: Role models? Try using your own moral compass 04/02/10
�VIEW FULL ARCHIVE �
Canada have yet to win a gold medal as the host nation at an Olympic Games and have spent �74million ensuring that changes. As a result, Canadian athletes have been given access to the luge, skeleton and ski runs at Whistler and the speed skating track at Richmond that has been denied to their rivals. For the best, it merely puts them at a competitive disadvantage; for the less talented it is potentially fatal.
Kumaritashvili was no threat to anybody. He was ranked 44 in the world and had competed in just five World Cup events. On Friday, making his sixth practice run, he came late into curve 16, shot up to the roof, where he would have experienced immense G forces causing him to lose control of the sled. He hit the wall, catapulted to the top and struck an unguarded metal support pole at 89mph. He was pronounced dead in hospital.
The organisers say the design and safety of the course was not to blame, but this is not true, either. There is now a makeshift fence at the top of curve 16 and the poles are padded. Any curve that allows a slider to exit the course is by definition flawed. The men�s luge will now begin from the women�s starting position to reduce speeds in the lower bends. If this is not an admission that the course had been poorly conceived,
what is?
Yet danger is part of the thrill and it is hard to get the balance right. The sport of three-day eventing was cursed with a series of fatalities 10 years ago and at the Sydney Olympics in 2000 the organisers made safety a priority with the result that many complained the course was too tame. Sliding sports are extreme and until Kumaritashvili died, all were very excited that Vancouver was promising the fastest track in the history of the Games.
Death on the ice: Nodar's mother Dodo mourns
In this context, though, to limit the time athletes had to prepare on it was courting tragedy. Owning the podium should not mean placing competitors in jeopardy, particularly in a sport in which fatalities have occurred, albeit infrequently.
Hosting major sports events used to be about just that: reaching out to the world. There was a generosity of spirit, a desire to welcome all. Now the process is so costly, so corrupted by commerce, that it has mutated into month-long exercises in flag-waving self promotion. Look at us, look how strong we are, look how fast we are, look how powerful. We will crush you with our sporting prowess.
We knew what to expect from totalitarian China, but when Canada is so blinded by ambition that lives are risked in pursuit of glory, it is time to stop and take stock.
If Canada own the podium on Blackcomb Mountain, what will it mean against the grim final journey of Nodar Kumaritashvili? To have collateral damage in war is unacceptable; in sport, it is an abomination.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-1251006/MARTIN-SAMUEL-Canadas-lust-glory-blame-senseless-tragedy-Nodar-Kumaritashvili.html#comments |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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Some British media are slamming Canada as being a bad Olympic host, with much of the criticism focused on its role in the death of the 21-year-old Georgian luger.
A headline in the Daily Mail reads: "Canada's lust for glory is to blame for this senseless tragedy." It's a reference to the death of Nodar Kumaritashvili, who was killed in a crash during a training run at the Whistler Sliding Centre in B.C.
�Canada wanted to Own The Podium at the Vancouver Winter Olympic Games. This morning they can put their Maple Leaf stamp on something more instantly tangible: the nondescript little box carrying the lifeless body of Nodar Kumaritashvili back to his home in Bakuriani, Georgia,� wrote Martin Samuel of the Daily Mail.
�Made in Canada, it should say. Made by the perversion of the Olympic movement for national gain; made by a culture of worthless aggrandizement and pride.�
Samuel also accuses Canada of cheating, complaining that Canadian luge competitors practised more than 300 times on the luge course while other countries' athletes had a lot less access.
Lawrence Donegan, of the Guardian, picks up on the same theme and points fingers at Canada for limiting access to facilities.
�More immediate questions may be asked by the Canadians of themselves, who, in pursuit of their own Olympic dream � appear to have forgotten that national characteristic for which they are best known: politeness,� the article states.
�In the run-up to these Games, the hosts � or at least the Canadian Olympic Committee � seemed to have mislaid their manners. Money has been poured into training, while a hard-edged approach � albeit one within the rules of the Olympics � has been adopted in dealing with other teams, most noticeably in granting them only limited access to facilities such as the sliding track.�
In another article, Donegan also suggests the somewhat cold response by some Canadian lugers to the death of Kumaritashvili is "another blow against [Canada's] reputation as the kindest, gentlest member of the Olympic community."
In the British Times, sports writer Simon Barnes defends Canada from blame for the tragedy, but takes aim at the country�s Own the Podium slogan.
�Their highly unpleasant Own the Podium program, in which they seek to exploit home advantage to the last nanosecond has alienated the world they are supposed to play host to,� he wrote.
�Home athletes always have an advantage: getting ugly about it is neither necessary nor appropriate.�
One article in the Telegraph states that: "Canada has been trying so hard to please, it hurts."
http://www.cbc.ca/arts/story/2010/02/15/host-canada-criticism.html |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| do I really need to make a smiley face emoticon? Let's ignore the 3-year Quebec degree comments and focus on the fact that Canada refused practice time for "foreigners," eh? Resulting in the death of a guy who was very afraid of the course because of the lack of allow practice time. Wow, u guys are more sensitive than Koreans. Would hate to meet a Canadian-Korean, eh? |
Did it really take you 4 years to complete your degree, and still come out to be as daft as you are? How does this incident have anything to do with 3 year degrees? Just because some things may be different than in your country, it does not mean that it is inferior to a 4 year degree, and by your comments and form of reasoning, one can guess that the extra year you did did not have any effect whatsoever. We are not so sensitive; just want to let people know what a troll you are.
Not too sure of which countries offer 3 year degrees, but for your information, the province of Ontario does, but they do an extra year of high school. Australia, India, the UK and most of Europe have 3 year degrees, and most U.S. universities accept these degree for international students enrolling in graduate programs. |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: The olympic luger who died |
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| crescent wrote: |
| BriTunes wrote: |
| Let's ignore the 3-year Quebec degree comments and focus on the fact that Canada refused practice time for "foreigners," eh? Resulting in the death of a guy who was very afraid of the course because of the lack of allow practice time. |
What a piece of work you are. Can't get it through your thick head that Nodar was practicing when he died on a track that was known to be faster than ever? And you speak as if you have such high regard for humaniity yet you can't even refer to him by name? His name isn't 'dead guy', you imbecile.
I gots newz fer ya bub.
The Canadians did't REFUSE practice time. They just didn't give any extra.
It's a known tactic, but if it makes you feel better, keep pointing fingers. |
I am pointing far fewer fingers than the BBC,CNN, and even the CBC. Denial is a river in Egypt. |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| supernick wrote: |
Did it really take you 4 years to complete your degree, and still come out to be as daft as you are? How does this incident have anything to do with 3 year degrees? Just because some things may be different than in your country, it does not mean that it is inferior to a 4 year degree, and by your comments and form of reasoning, one can guess that the extra year you did did not have any effect whatsoever. We are not so sensitive; just want to let people know what a troll you are.
Not too sure of which countries offer 3 year degrees, but for your information, the province of Ontario does, but they do an extra year of high school. Australia, India, the UK and most of Europe have 3 year degrees, and most U.S. universities accept these degree for international students enrolling in graduate programs. |
hehe. Like I said, gotta post everything twice or more. You guys getting the BC Bud here without sharing?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke?wasRedirected=true |
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crescent

Joined: 15 Jan 2003 Location: yes.
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: The olympic luger who died |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
| BriTunes wrote: |
| Let's ignore the 3-year Quebec degree comments and focus on the fact that Canada refused practice time for "foreigners," eh? Resulting in the death of a guy who was very afraid of the course because of the lack of allow practice time. |
What a piece of work you are. Can't get it through your thick head that Nodar was practicing when he died on a track that was known to be faster than ever? And you speak as if you have such high regard for humaniity yet you can't even refer to him by name? His name isn't 'dead guy', you imbecile.
I gots newz fer ya bub.
The Canadians did't REFUSE practice time. They just didn't give any extra.
It's a known tactic, but if it makes you feel better, keep pointing fingers. |
I am pointing far fewer fingers than the BBC,CNN, and even the CBC. Denial is a river in Egypt. |
This tragedy is completely horrible, but you have really made an idiot of yourself in this thread. It's clear you don't have a mind that thinks for itself, but rather one that regurgitates what it reads. When one of your accusations didn't pan out, you went on to another, finally laying rest with this one.
But even this one is based on foreign criticism, which is no surprise in situations like this. Where is this CBC criticism you speak of. I hope you don't think it's in that link you posted above. You can regurgitate columnists all you want, but what does the IOC say about it? What is the result of the investigation?
Bottom line is, everyone was given the practice time they were entitled to under the rules. If they weren't the IOC would have stepped in.
Luge is arguably the most dangerous sport in the games, and Nodar had 6 runs before this happened on another practice run. It's a sad loss, but you obviously know nothing of the sport, nothing of the athletes, nothing of the IOC rules, and nothing about critical thinking.
I can't believe I'm even wasting my energy replying to you. |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke?wasRedirected=true
for that place we get a bunch of our comedians from, not too quick on the uptake (though the peccant dead guy demonstrates that in technicolor). |
So, you figure that a thread about a man dying is the best place for your ake on comedy?
And then you seek to insult my comedic sense because I'm not wanting to wallow in the gutter with you?
And what is the dead guy guilty of? |
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Patong Dong
Joined: 06 May 2003 Location: On Nut
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Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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I have to say Britunes you wear your dislike for Canada on your sleeve and clearly that is the issue for you here. Takes away from any legitimacy your arguments may have had. Although there wasn't too much that was not disingenuous about your posts.
Britunes: I am pointing far fewer fingers than the BBC,CNN, and even the CBC
Who cares what they are saying. Are you seriously suggesting the media outlets are the authority here?
I am going to put a little more credence into what the International Luge Federation put out:
After reviewing footage of the incident,[2] the International Luge Federation concluded that the accident was caused by a steering error, and not a track error
Britunes:
Yes he was on a practice run--- two days before the event. One does not train the same way two days before an event, as one would say...with two months training. Never been on a luge, but take any couse sport--auto racing, horse racing, skiing, etc. You don't go balls out til you know the course. The dead guy you're blaming for "drivers error" was not allowed by your federation to properly learn the course...with 1/10th the allowed practice time as the canadians were given. This whole blame the dead guy talk is frankly dumb guy talk. They teach argumentative logic in the 4th year at proper Universities
Wow! again, obviously your aim is to beat Canada up for this death, damn the facts. But do you wear an "I'm with Stupid" shirt with the arrow pointing up?
Luge is not at all like those sports you've mentioned. The bulk of the speed comes from the track. Did you think they urge their luge to gallop a little faster, or switch into fifth when they come out of a turn. Luge is an inherently dangerous activity as the vast control they have is based on steering in a timely fashion at blistering speeds. You talk as if the first time down they sit up on the luge to add wind resistance and coast down looking at the course.
You don't go balls out until you know the course? They know the course! It's not like a waterpark where they're going down thinking I wonder what's around this corner. They know! The course was open to all countries for previous training and World Cup events. The limiting of the practice time is meant to give the competitive edge to the home side. It is an accepted practice and is directed to faster times. Nodar's sixth run was going to be his sixth run whether it was 6 of 10 or 6 of 200. No Olympian would go into a practice run on a luge course in a different manner than they would do their actual run in regards to effort. How would that be practice? More runs allows them to find a faster way down the track, not a safer one.
As to others mentioning before hater jumped in that the placement of those posts looked unsafe, I agree. But Vanoc would share the blame with other groups, domestic and int'l, that signed off on it. [/quote] |
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BriTunes
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:39 am Post subject: |
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I WILL WIN, OR DIE, FATHER.
TBILISI, Georgia (AP) - The father of the Georgian luger killed at the Vancouver Olympics said Monday his son worried the track was too dangerous, but insisted on competing because he had come to the games to try to win.
"He told me: I will either win or die," David Kumaritashvili told The Associated Press. "But that was youthful bravado, he couldn't be seriously talking about death."
The father, in an interview at his home in the snow-covered slopes of Georgia's top ski resort, said he had spoken to his son, Nodar, shortly before the fatal training run Friday.
"He told me: Dad, I really fear that curve," the elder Kumaritashvili said. "I'm a former athlete myself, and I told him: 'You just take a slower start.' But he responded: `Dad, what kind of thing you are teaching me? I have come to the Olympics to try to win.'"
Nodar Kumaritashvili, 21, died when he lost control of his sled, flew off the course and slammed into a steel pole at nearly 90 mph. After the crash, the poles were wrapped in padding and the course was altered to make it slower.
The International Olympic Committee and luge officials have taken criticism for blaming the accident on Kumaritashvili's failure to make tactical corrections during his run, and for saying they were changing the course not to make it safer but to soothe the emotions of the athletes.
Concerns about the course, the world's fastest, had been raised for months. There were worries that the $100 million-plus venue was too technically demanding, and that only Canada's sliders would have enough time to adapt to it in practice.
"They tested that track on my son," the elder Kumaritashvili, 46, said bitterly.
"My son was training since he was 14. He ran tracks in France, Austria and Canada, and he never suffered an injury," he said. "He has passed through all stages of the World Cup and made it to the Olympics. He couldn't have done that if he were an inexperienced athlete. Anyone can make mistake and break a leg or suffer some other injury. But to die!"
A private service for Kumaritashvili was held Monday at a Vancouver funeral home attended by several Georgian athletes and team officials as well as international and Vancouver organizers.
Afterward, his brown casket was placed in a gray hearse and driven away with a police escort of 14 motorcycles.
The body is to leave Monday afternoon on a flight to Germany and will be flown to Georgia for arrival early Wednesday, a senior Olympic official told The Associated Press. The official spoke anonymously because the plans were being kept private.
Kumaritashvili is to be buried in his hometown of Bakuriani, a small ski resort about 110 miles from Tbilisi, the capital of the former Soviet republic. His death has devastated the community. Neighbors and friends have been bringing flower sprays and offering condolences to his family.
The luger was the pride of his hometown, where he was loved for his high spirits and generosity.
David Gureshidze, a 28-year-old friend, said Nodar was loved by children of the village and taught many of them to ski.
"He spent most of his time abroad, but he would never miss a chance to visit home and would bring gifts to everyone," Gureshidze said.
The Kumaritashvilis' neighbor, Gogi Laliyev, said the athlete was fond of Laliyev's 4-year-old son and promised to bring him a toy rifle from Vancouver.
"We told the boy that Nodar won't come back, and he asked why," Laliyev said. "We said that he died and my son asked: `Won't he come back to life?' We said no, and he broke into tears."
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9DSQ3GG0&show_article=1 |
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roknroll

Joined: 29 Dec 2007
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:02 am Post subject: Re: The olympic luger who died |
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| BriTunes wrote: |
If by universal consensus you mean the Canadian douchebag coach, then yeah. In non-3-year degree countries, consensus means "most peoples' opinions" which in this case "blame" is being put sqarely on Canadian morality in refusing other countries practice time. Sure, if you want to skew things to your advantage to maybe squeeze out an extra Bronze as host, in speed skating or something, fine. But refusing practice time to counties in a potentially deadly sport, well, that's sick and twisted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/olympics/james-lawton-vancouverrsquos-quick-descent-from-high-ground-1899592.html
| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
| I find it amusing that there is a near-unanimous consensus among luge coaches and experts that driver error was the cause of the crash and that such an accident is unbelievably rare, yet we have all these new armchair luge experts sprouting with their 20/20 hindsight acting like they know everything about deficiencies in the track. |
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The coach's comment which was on the first page in this thread, came from the German coach:
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"It's a very rare situation," three-time Olympic champion and German coach Georg Hackl said.
Shortly before the accident, Hackl said he didn't believe the Whistler track was unsafe.
"People have the opinion it is dangerous but the track crew does the best it can and they are working hard to make sure the track is in good shape and everyone is safe," he said. "My opinion is that it's not any more dangerous than anywhere else." |
an athlete:
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"When you are going that fast it just takes one slip and you can have that big mistake," U.S. doubles luger Christian Niccum said Thursday, when asked about track safety. "All of us are very calm going down, but if you start jerking at 90 mph or making quick reactions, that sled will steer.
That's the difference between luge and bobsled and skeleton, we're riding on a very sharp edge and that sled will go exactly where we tell it to so you better be telling it the right things on the way down." |
after the changes to the starting positions:
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Sad as they were about a colleague's death, many of the competitors lamented the ILF's decision saying a difficult course was now diminished.
"It is not what I like," said Austrian Manuel Pfister. "It is too slow, from the start to [corner] 11." |
Of course there were comments to the contrary, just making a note about it being more than the Cdn coach.
| Quote: |
| Crashes happen often in luge -- at least 12 sliders have wrecked just this week on the daunting Whistler surface. Still, some who have been around tracks their entire lives couldn't remember someone actually being thrown over the wall. |
It will be interesting to hear more in the future from various coaches and athletes, given that they don't want to lose focus and/or sour their Olympic experience after the event. Although I don't have much knowledge about the sport and all, those massive iron beams just beyond the meter-high ice wall look suspect. Perhaps they could've been more proactive in this sport and had every luge track rigged as safely as possible regardless of the rarity of the occurrence. My guess is that it was never anticipated that it would actually happen (and probably an impediment for the cameras). Can be no excuse from this time forward, something productive to come out of such a tragedy. Of course, it is inherently dangerous and it doesn't mean that another luger won't break his spine/neck. With regard to the padding, that's only relevant for broken bones in my opinion. If you hit your head, your brain is still going to be severely traumatized. Only a wall would work there.
As for ole Martin Samuel: "....Made by the perversion of the Olympic movement for national gain; made by a culture of worthless aggrandizement and pride.�
Did he steal that from the detractors of Imperialism? Seems like the drama queen got a bit emotional on this one. Did he have anything to say about the innocent Afghans killed on this same day? That's probably not going to win him the points he's looking for. He is aware that his own nation has perversely won the 2012 Olympic bid right?...lol I'm sure Marty is not out for self-aggrandizement here is he? That humble servant of deadlines. |
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supernick
Joined: 24 Jan 2003 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| hehe. Like I said, gotta post everything twice or more. You guys getting the BC Bud here without sharing? |
You're sounding more and more stupid. Only an idiot would post something about 3 year degrees in Canada on this thread. The only reason why there are any responses to your comments is to expose you for your own ineptitude. You�re a washed up cause. Keep posting. There�s still a couple of weeks vacation left.
| Quote: |
| In non-3-year degree countries, |
That would include most of Europe, Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, NZ and India. The are now universities in the U.S. that offer 3 year degrees. Some things just don't register in your head, do they? |
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