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grammar experts, tag question
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ed



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: grammar experts, tag question Reply with quote

The sentence "you work hard" is followed by the tag question "don't you?"

how about if the sentence is "you must work hard"

Is the tag question "don't you?" or "mustn't you"



or ------------------- Question
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tall_dave



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Location: Songtan, S. Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: grammar experts, tag question Reply with quote

ed wrote:
The sentence, "You work hard," is followed by the tag question "don't you?"

How about if the sentence is, "You must work hard,"

Is the tag question "don't you?" or "mustn't you"

or ------------------- Question

"You work hard, don't you?" or
"You must not work hard, do you?

I believe "You must work hard, mustn't you." is correct.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grammatically it should be 'mustn't you' but the context is strange as by using 'must' in this way you are making a deduction about someone and then asking them for confirmation that your deduction is correct. However by then adding 'mustn't you' you are asking them to make a deduction themselves about something they presumably know. So functionally 'don't you' would be more suitable as you are then asking them to say whether something is true or not, instead of requiring a deduction. Complicated. As far as what people actually say I'd suggest they either say 'you work hard don't you' or just 'you must work hard.'
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be happier to just say 'You must work hard' without the 'mustn't you', and have the tone of voice say it all.

Though if I had to choose, Mustn't you? works for me.
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tall_dave



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Location: Songtan, S. Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: grammar experts, tag question Reply with quote

ed wrote:
The sentence "you work hard" is followed by the tag question "don't you?"

how about if the sentence is "you must work hard"

Is the tag question "don't you?" or "mustn't you"
or ------------------- Question

Thanks for killing my brain so early in the morning. You knew you did that, didn't you. Wink
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ed



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:06 pm    Post subject: well Reply with quote

yesterday afternoon a Korean teacher asked me this question and it's been busting my brain since Laughing
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jugbandjames



Joined: 15 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's "mustn't you" but it may sound weird because you don't really say that contraction very often in many dialects of American English. We'll usually use shouldn't when we could use mustn't as in "You shouldn't take that street" instead of "You mustn't take that street." If you substitute a different aux verb it sounds more natural, like:

"You should work hard, shouldn't you?"
"You could work hard, couldn't you?"

I'm guessing you're American since it sounds weird to you too.
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tall_dave



Joined: 02 Nov 2009
Location: Songtan, S. Korea

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jugbandjames wrote:
It's "mustn't you" but it may sound weird because you don't really say that contraction very often in many dialects of American English. We'll usually use shouldn't when we could use mustn't as in "You shouldn't take that street" instead of "You mustn't take that street." If you substitute a different aux verb it sounds more natural, like:

"You should work hard, shouldn't you?"
"You could work hard, couldn't you?"

I'm guessing you're American since it sounds weird to you too.

Right.. Mustn't is an absolute. Shouldn't is a suggestion.
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ed



Joined: 15 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:17 am    Post subject: hey Reply with quote

thanks everyone. I'll let the korean teacher know then get it out of my head with with a few beer tonight Laughing
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Tiberious aka Sparkles



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tall_dave wrote:
jugbandjames wrote:
It's "mustn't you" but it may sound weird because you don't really say that contraction very often in many dialects of American English. We'll usually use shouldn't when we could use mustn't as in "You shouldn't take that street" instead of "You mustn't take that street." If you substitute a different aux verb it sounds more natural, like:

"You should work hard, shouldn't you?"
"You could work hard, couldn't you?"

I'm guessing you're American since it sounds weird to you too.

Right.. Mustn't is an absolute. Shouldn't is a suggestion.


It's also a presumption:

"You must be hungry."

"You must have been upset."

Anyway, the OP is correct, although the tag question is redundant.
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surfinROK



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Location: Busan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something nobody else has mentioned...

It depends on the context. "Must" is a modal verb. It can be used for different purposes. Must can express certainty (epistemic) or necessity (deontic).

"You must work hard, don't you?"

"You must work hard, mustn't you?"

These sentences can both be correct depending on the context. The former is correct if one is expressing that it is certain that the subject ("you") has a strong work ethic.

The latter is correct if the the speaker is stating that it is a necessity or obligation to work hard. Again, depending on the context, the subject "you" in this case may be an individual (singular "you") or a group (plural "you").

Hope that helps. Cheers.

These websites give clarification:
Easy reference: http://www.englishpage.com/modals/must.html
Complex reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_verb
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Tiberious aka Sparkles



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

surfinROK wrote:
Something nobody else has mentioned...


It's been mentioned twice, actually.

By the way, OP, you've been on Dave's for seven years, yet you're soliciting its users for grammar questions?

Holy hell, man.
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Globutron



Joined: 13 Feb 2010
Location: England/Anyang

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote:
surfinROK wrote:
Something nobody else has mentioned...


It's been mentioned twice, actually.

By the way, OP, you've been on Dave's for seven years, yet you're soliciting its users for grammar questions?

Holy hell, man.


You've been on Dave's for seven years, yet you're still surprised by such things?
Holly mackerel...fish.
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jugbandjames



Joined: 15 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

surfinROK wrote:
Something nobody else has mentioned...

It depends on the context. "Must" is a modal verb. It can be used for different purposes. Must can express certainty (epistemic) or necessity (deontic).

"You must work hard, don't you?"

"You must work hard, mustn't you?"

These sentences can both be correct depending on the context. The former is correct if one is expressing that it is certain that the subject ("you") has a strong work ethic.

The latter is correct if the the speaker is stating that it is a necessity or obligation to work hard. Again, depending on the context, the subject "you" in this case may be an individual (singular "you") or a group (plural "you").

Hope that helps. Cheers.

These websites give clarification:
Easy reference: http://www.englishpage.com/modals/must.html
Complex reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modal_verb


Are you sure you use do for the epistemic? I can't find that distinction in any of my grammar books. It's still functioning as a modal auxiliary verb, so I don't see why you would use do if you've got an auxiliary verb to use. Then again, I'm American, so my intuition doesn't help me much with this example. I think most Americans would just say "You work hard, don't you" or "You must work hard, huh?" or simply not use a tag question.
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surfinROK



Joined: 17 Nov 2004
Location: Busan

PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi jugbandjames,

You do have a valid point, which others did point out earlier, in that Americans are not likely to use "mustn't" as a tag question. It's very British, eh? I mentioned epistemic because it relates to a possible definition of the word must. Let's look at the original question again:

Quote:
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:55 pm Post subject: grammar experts, tag question
The sentence "you work hard" is followed by the tag question "don't you?"

how about if the sentence is "you must work hard"

Is the tag question "don't you?" or "mustn't you"


We need more information in order to answer this question. Both can be correct grammatically, depending on the intention of the speaker. The word "must" has different meanings. In the given clause, it can be substituted with "certainly" or "should". We need the context to know the correct tag question to add.

You must work hard. --> You certainly work hard.

You must work hard. --> You should work hard.

These statements have very different meanings. From here, it is easy to see the correct tag questions to add to the modified statements.

You certainly work hard, don't you? (You must work hard, don't you?)
You should work hard, shouldn't you? (You must work hard, mustn't you / shouldn't you?)

I hope this is helpful and clarifies the issue. It restates my previous post more simply. The first post made me feel like a "grammar expert" but this makes me feel more like a teacher.

Have a good (fun) weekend.
이번 주말에 재미있게 놀이 하세요.
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