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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: Israeli murder squads and foreign passports |
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DIPLOMATIC EUPHEMISMS notwithstanding, the d�marche of the polite �invitation� to Israel�s ambassador Zion Evrony on Thursday to visit Iveagh House marked a serious chilling in Ireland�s already tetchy relations with Israel. Dr Evrony will have heard expressions of serious Irish concern, �anger�, in Minister Miche�l Martin�s words, over the use of five forged Irish passports by suspects in the Dubai murder of senior Hamas figure Mahmoud al-Mahbouh.
Forged passports from Britain, Germany and France were also used, and although the Government, like the British, has not expressly accused Israel, the invitation suggested Dublin saw the hand of its secret service, Mossad, in the killing. Dubai police chief Dahi Khalfan Tamim has said he is 99 per cent sure Israel was involved. And, within Israel, news coverage assumes �our boys� did it, although not perhaps as efficiently as they would have expected of Mossad.
Both Paris and London have also asked for help and explanations from Israeli ambassadors. Like Dr Evrony, the latter were stressing they knew nothing and would convey concerns to Tel Aviv. �Outraged� British foreign secretary David Miliband has demanded Israels full co-operation in investigating the passports and will meet Israeli foreign minister Avigdor Lieberman at an EU foreign ministers� meeting in Brussels on Monday. It is a discussion Mr Martin might want to be part of.
Mr Lieberman insists there is no proof Mossad was involved and adds that Israel has a �policy of ambiguity� on intelligence matters. That is simply not good enough. Israel is ever ready to denounce acts of terrorism when it is a target so its silence on this act of international terrorism is deafening. At the very least it must be asked to demonstrate good faith by genuinely assisting international inquiries, and committing itself both to ruling out agents using Irish passports in future and to extraditing suspects if they are identified in Israel.....continued on link http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0220/1224264877958.html |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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So a senior Hamas official was killed by people using fake EU passports, and some people -- without evidence -- think it was probably Mossad. Quite a few words to say very little.
I want to address this in particular:
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| Israel is ever ready to denounce acts of terrorism when it is a target so its silence on this act of international terrorism is deafening. |
Even assuming Israel actually did this, this was not a terrorist attack, it was an assassination. The two simply aren't synonymous.
By the way, how do you feel about the fact that this fellow admitted to playing a role in the deaths of 2 Israeli soldiers? Strange that you didn't feel that was worthy of posting, hmm? Israel is suspected of doing something? Outrage! Hamas representatives actually admit to doing something? Meh. Typical of the anti-Israeli pattern of behavior. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Even assuming Israel actually did this, this was not a terrorist attack, it was an assassination. The two simply aren't synonymous. |
Assassinating somebody is in my view a terrorist act.
Has this guy been to linked to using Irish passports while carrying out the killing of Israeli soldiers. Also what would the reaction be if say Syria had sent assassins to murder people in England or the United states while traveling under false passports? People like you would no doubt be screaming righteous indignation at such actions but when Israel is suspected of doing it that's all fine and dandy. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Even assuming Israel actually did this, this was not a terrorist attack, it was an assassination. The two simply aren't synonymous. |
Assassinating somebody is in my view a terrorist act. |
Then Hamas is a terrorist organization and you should be condemning them as constantly and fervently as you condemn Israel, as the Hamas official assassinated here himself admitted to essentially assassinating two Israelis. But you don't. Surprise!
| blade wrote: |
Has this guy been to linked to using Irish passports while carrying out the killing of Israeli soldiers. |
No, but that doesn't make his role in kidnapping and murdering two Israelis any less detestable, and he's directly relevent to the case given he's the victim of the assassination. You clearly simply don't care about this kind of thing unless it's the Israelis doing it.
| blade wrote: |
| Also what would the reaction be if say Syria had sent assassins to murder people in England or the United states while traveling under false passports? |
If the person being assassinated kidnapped and murdered two Syrians, I would be about as apathetic about it as I am about this. I'm not obsessively anti-Syrian the way you are obsessively anti-Israeli. I'm simply realistic about it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Israeli murder squads and foreign passports |
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| blade wrote: |
| Mr Lieberman insists there is no proof Mossad was involved and adds that Israel has a �policy of ambiguity� on intelligence matters. |
This is as close as you will get to an actual admission. The Dubai Police Chief says he will ask Interpol for an arrest warrant for the head of Mossad.
Democracy Now! has a good interview on this:
Israel Accused of Stealing Identities, Using Fake Passports in Killing of Hamas Commander in Dubai
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| Israel is under growing international pressure over the assassination of a top Hamas commander in Dubai last month. On Thursday, the international police agency Interpol placed eleven members of an alleged hit squad on its most wanted list. The team of eleven suspects included six holding fake British passports bearing the names of Israeli citizens and three holding Irish passports. At least seven of the names on the passports belong to Israeli residents whose identities had been stolen. |
Video and interview transcript at link |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| blade wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Even assuming Israel actually did this, this was not a terrorist attack, it was an assassination. The two simply aren't synonymous. |
Assassinating somebody is in my view a terrorist act. |
Then Hamas is a terrorist organization and you should be condemning them as constantly and fervently as you condemn Israel, as the Hamas official assassinated here himself admitted to essentially assassinating two Israelis. But you don't. Surprise!
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The issue here for me is not that Hamas or Israel murdered somebody but that agents travelling under a fake Irish passport crossed international borders to kill somebody. This act potentially puts other Irish and European citizens at risk when they travel to these countries. Ireland does not have the same historical baggage of other European countries of being a colonial power or anything else for that matter. As such Irish passport holders don't generally have to worry about being singled out when they travel in the ME or elsewhere. In future this may not be case thanks to who ever carried out this attack.
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| blade wrote: |
Has this guy been to linked to using Irish passports while carrying out the killing of Israeli soldiers. |
No, but that doesn't make his role in kidnapping and murdering two Israelis any less detestable, and he's directly relevent to the case given he's the victim of the assassination. You clearly simply don't care about this kind of thing unless it's the Israelis doing it.
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That's not true and I honestly don't know you insist on telling me how I feel about other Arab countries. Big Bird has explained this to you at length when you accused her of the same thing, so I will suggest that in future before you go off on your predictable diatribe you should reread big bird's earlier posts.
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| blade wrote: |
| Also what would the reaction be if say Syria had sent assassins to murder people in England or the United states while traveling under false passports? |
If the person being assassinated kidnapped and murdered two Syrians, I would be about as apathetic about it as I am about this. I'm not obsessively anti-Syrian the way you are obsessively anti-Israeli. I'm simply realistic about it. |
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You seem to be obsessed to with defending Israel's actions no matter what . Nobody made you reply to my OP but yet you did. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:22 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| The issue here for me is not that Hamas or Israel murdered somebody but that agents travelling under a fake Irish passport crossed international borders to kill somebody. |
If you had posted about any nation other than Israel, I might believe this. Given your pattern of posting, it's pretty clear you're just going to keep ranting about Israel while avoid criticizing the equal or worse actions of other nations while using any excuse you can to justify said rhetoric.
| blade wrote: |
| You seem to be obsessed to with defending Israel's actions no matter what . |
I don't see how this statement is compatible with my repeated assertions that there's plenty to criticize about Israel. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I don't see how this statement is compatible with my repeated assertions that there's plenty to criticize about Israel. |
Sure you do but you also make it pretty obvious that you think that what ever Israel does is okay at the end of the day because Israel's neighbors are worse than it is. You don't seem to be able to understand Israel's effect on the ME's political development or lack there of. Arab rulers I'm sure actually love having Israel as a neighbor as it's perceived actions give them perfect cover for suppressing their people.
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:02 am Post subject: |
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I think the odds of it being Israel who carried out the hit are very high. What other country in the region has a lot of white people, hates Hamas, and has a history of going around the world using large assassination teams to execute individuals?
I've seen some people inside and outside of Israel saying it couldn't have been the Mossad, since the team in Dubai was caught on camera and there were so many on that team. They say the Mossad wouldn't have been caught on camera or sent so many to kill one man. But the Israeli government sent a large number of assassins to kill the innocent Gypsy retaurant waiter in Norway and most of that team got arrested by Norwegian police. The Dubai team actually killed a guilty man and didn't get caught, so a strong case can be made that this team had a much higher level of competence than the Mossad team in Norway.
I really don't think it was a group effort by Ireland, France, and Great Britain. And it obviously wasn't Iran or the Arabs -- there wasn't an explosion.  |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Malaysia is a Muslim nation. This is what Muslim nations are like. We all know this is what they are like. Don't expect a lot of outrage around here about it, though. After all, it didn't happen in Israel. |
Muslims can lash, bomb and stone to death whomever they like. The only words of condemnation you�ll hear from the left is of the person criticizing it. How racist, after all. But the moment the Israelis assassinate a known weapons-smuggling lunatic, they�ll paint their faces and line streets waving their fists and their little placards.
Anti-semitism:
The BBC is simply disgusting. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I don't see how this statement is compatible with my repeated assertions that there's plenty to criticize about Israel. |
Sure you do but you also make it pretty obvious that you think that what ever Israel does is okay at the end of the day because Israel's neighbors are worse than it is. |
No, I don't. This is a complete misrepresentation of the case I've made repeatedly on this forum.
| blade wrote: |
| You don't seem to be able to understand Israel's effect on the ME's political development or lack there of. |
I understand it just fine. I understand we have a giant mass of land which labors under the barbarism of Islamic Law, and we have one patch of that land -- Israel -- that has developed very quickly by comparison and is much more in line with Western values. And I see people like you attacking them while implicitly defending those barbarous Muslim nations. People like you shrugging off the kidnapping and murder of Israelis, while vigorously condemning the assassination of the individual responsible.
| blade wrote: |
| Arab rulers I'm sure actually love having Israel as a neighbor as it's perceived actions give them perfect cover for suppressing their people. |
Don't be retarded, everyone knows the inhumanities these nations inflict upon their citizens has nothing to do with Israel. The real shame is people like you going out of your way to avoid criticizing those inhumanities because doing so requires admitting these nations are far worse than Israel by any meaningful standard, and you simply can't have that. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
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What's the Muslim population of Ireland? Still relatively low?
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| There are approximately five thousand Muslims in the Republic of Ireland. The population is composed of Muslims from the Indian Subcontinent, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and some local converts. About 4,000 of the Muslims in Ireland live in or around Dublin. |
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm
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Source:
Islamic Foundation of Ireland
163 South Circular Road
Dublin-8
Ireland.
Tel: (353-1) 453 3242
Fax: (353-1) 453 2785 |
Five thousand? Get back to us when there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions living there. Maybe your tune will have changed by then. |
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blade
Joined: 30 Jun 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| caniff wrote: |
What's the Muslim population of Ireland? Still relatively low?
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| There are approximately five thousand Muslims in the Republic of Ireland. The population is composed of Muslims from the Indian Subcontinent, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and some local converts. About 4,000 of the Muslims in Ireland live in or around Dublin. |
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm
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Source:
Islamic Foundation of Ireland
163 South Circular Road
Dublin-8
Ireland.
Tel: (353-1) 453 3242
Fax: (353-1) 453 2785 |
Five thousand? Get back to us when there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions living there. Maybe your tune will have changed by then. |
Not that Ireland's population of Muslims has anything to do with anything but for the record their are about 45,000 of Muslim's living in Ireland.
http://www.islamireland.ie/articles/muslim-entrepreneurship-ireland |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| blade wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
What's the Muslim population of Ireland? Still relatively low?
| Quote: |
| There are approximately five thousand Muslims in the Republic of Ireland. The population is composed of Muslims from the Indian Subcontinent, the Middle East, Southeast Asia and some local converts. About 4,000 of the Muslims in Ireland live in or around Dublin. |
http://www.islamfortoday.com/ireland.htm
| Quote: |
Source:
Islamic Foundation of Ireland
163 South Circular Road
Dublin-8
Ireland.
Tel: (353-1) 453 3242
Fax: (353-1) 453 2785 |
Five thousand? Get back to us when there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions living there. Maybe your tune will have changed by then. |
Not that Ireland's population of Muslims has anything to do with anything but for the record there are about 45,000 of Muslim's living in Ireland.
http://www.islamireland.ie/articles/muslim-entrepreneurship-ireland |
I think the population's relevant.
That said, what makes you think your source gives you the right to definitively state what their population is when caniff's source seems just as valid if not more so and lists a number radically different from the one your source went with? Shouldn't you at least qualify your source's estimate by saying there "might be" about 45,000 or "this source is suggesting" about 45,000? Even the source you went with claims that:
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| To a large extent it is difficult to get accurate statistics on Muslim population in Ireland. |
If you're going to confidently assert the validity of a population estimate that's radically different from one someone else just provided instead of offering an estimate and acknowledging that you don't know which is more accurate, you're at least kind of obligated to explain why yours should be seen as the more accurate one. |
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