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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 2:26 am Post subject: grammar question (they + both) |
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They both graduated from Harvard.
They both hate spiders.
They both enjoy sky diving.
Is it grammatically incorrect to use "They both" in sentences like these?
Michael Swan devotes an entire page to both in Practical English Usage, but there's nothing to indicate whether the above are correct, incorrect, or acceptable.
Thanks. |
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Englishee
Joined: 21 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:00 am Post subject: |
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edit. nvm.
Last edited by Englishee on Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| Both is an adjective describing the pronoun they. |
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jugbandjames
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:16 am Post subject: |
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If both is an adj, then why does it come after the noun it modifies? Perhaps it's an appositive?
I don't have an answer to your question, but I'm glad to see you use Swan's Practical English Usage. Hooray for corpus based grammar books! Down with elitist grammar snobs pulling rules out of their *. |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:23 am Post subject: |
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| jugbandjames wrote: |
| If both is an adj, then why does it come after the noun it modifies? Perhaps it's an appositive? |
Appositives and appositive phrases are set off by commas. I don't like "restrictive" appositives. They're adjectives. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies so far. But ... is it really wrong to say use "They both"?
I just came across this example in Michael Swan's Basic English Usage:
My parents both like travelling.
If this is correct, then why wouldn't "They both like travelling." be equally acceptable as "Both like travelling."? |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| raewon wrote: |
Thanks for the replies so far. But ... is it really wrong to say use "They both"?
I just came across this example in Michael Swan's Basic English Usage:
My parents both like travelling.
If this is correct, then why wouldn't "They both like travelling." be equally acceptable as "Both like travelling."? |
Yes, you can use that form.
My question is...what made you think you think it was unacceptable? |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
Yes, you can use that form.
My question is...what made you think you think it was unacceptable? |
I was curious about that myself. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:21 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (they + both) |
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| raewon wrote: |
They both graduated from Harvard.
They both hate spiders.
They both enjoy sky diving.
Is it grammatically incorrect to use "They both" in sentences like these?
Michael Swan devotes an entire page to both in Practical English Usage, but there's nothing to indicate whether the above are correct, incorrect, or acceptable.
Thanks. |
both functions as a quantifier, a type of determiner, not an adjective. Adjectives are typically gradable (dirty, dirtier, dirtiest), which both isn't, and can co-occur (The tall, beautiful, buxom broad), whereas determiners can't (Her the book).
A Google search with "they both" found 39.200.000 matches. So, whether the language mavens consider it grammatical or not, it is in common usage. |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:34 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (they + both) |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| both functions as a quantifier, a type of determiner, not an adjective. |
All quantifiers are adjectives. |
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jugbandjames
Joined: 15 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Appositives and appositive phrases are set off by commas. I don't like "restrictive" appositives. They're adjectives. |
They're not always set off by commas, and the distinction between restrictive and non-restrictive is often not very clear. They're quite frequently noun phrases, so to call them adjectives is incorrect.
As to whether or not "They both" in the examples raewon gave is grammatically correct, I'd say it depends on what grammar book you're using. If it's an older book, it'll probably say it's incorrect. More recent books will tend to say it's acceptable. People often use that construction in speech even in formal situations, so I'd say that at the very least it is acceptable usage.
The Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage lists it as a redundant, idiomatic expression used for mild emphasis. It gives a brief overview of 200 years of grammarians saying it is incorrect while major writers like Swift, Blake, and Shakespeare continued to use it. It concludes the entry by saying, "In the end, after two centuries and more of comment, this molehill is still a molehill. It is a trivial matter and not worth worrying about."[/i]
Edit: In the words of Donnie Brasco: Ehhh Fugedaboudit
Last edited by jugbandjames on Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (they + both) |
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One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Both.
Neither.
Reference: A dictionary. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:34 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (they + both) |
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| ChilgokBlackHole wrote: |
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
Five.
Both.
Neither.
Reference: A dictionary. |
Wikipedia: This word class, or part of speech, exists in many languages, including English, though most English dictionaries still classify determiners under other parts of speech. Determiners usually include articles, and may include items like demonstratives, possessive determiners, quantifiers, and cardinal numbers, depending on the language.
Ordinal numbers, and other quantifiers, head determiner phrases (DP), the NP functions as the DP complement, i.e a determiner doesn't modify the N, as the D denotes a higher-order category than N. |
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ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:55 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (they + both) |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| ChilgokBlackHole wrote: |
| Reference: A dictionary. |
Wikipedia: |
I said dictionary. |
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