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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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 Posted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
Most of the kids I know that were targeted for "acting white" were actively trying to distance themselves from black people or "blackness".
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So you admit some black students are in fact targetted for "acting white", just like Conrad said. I for one can't blame them; it's totally reasonable to want to emulate the cultural traits of a more successful demographic group and distance yourself from the cultural traits of a less successful demographic group. |
So are you saying then that racism is endemic among white people? Wow, Fox, didn't know you had that in you.
Some links for you people, because you obviously have this notion that OMG poor little black kids can't get an education without being harassed!
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/magazine/12ACTING.html?_r=1&th=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1102900346-j9ktFlIV1mGQ1poXcCZ/jg
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| What they found was that black students basically have the same attitudes about achievement as their white counterparts do: they want to succeed, understand that doing well in school has important consequences in later life and feel better about themselves the better they do. |
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| The one school where the researchers did find anxiety about ''acting white'' was the one in which black students were drastically underrepresented in the gifted-and-talented classes. And significantly, at this particular school, the notion of the burden of ''acting white'' was most pervasive not among the black students interviewed by the researchers, but among their teachers and administrators, who told researchers that blacks are ''averse to success'' and ''don't place a high value on education.'' |
I graduated in the top percent of my class, and had enough AP credits that when I went off to college, I started as a junior. And not once did anyone ever tease me for "acting white". Why? Because I didn't use my intelligence as a means to distance myself from being a black person...like so many lost black kids do. Also, I wasn't a nerd/geek or people didn't ID me that way.
I'm not saying there has never been a case of one black kid telling another black kid she's "acting white". But this whole "OMG it's a problem in the black culture" is pure BS.
The abstract of the study, by the way:
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| For two decades the acting white hypothesis�the premise that black students are driven toward low school performance because of racialized peer pressure�has served as an explanation for the black�white achievement gap. Fordham and Ogbu proposed that black youths sabotage their own school careers by taking an oppositional stance toward academic achievement. Using interviews and existing data from eight North Carolina secondary public schools, this article shows that black adolescents are generally achievement oriented and that racialized peer pressure against high academic achievement is not prevalent in all schools. The analysis also shows important similarities in the experiences of black and white high-achieving students, indicating that dilemmas of high achievement are generalizable beyond a specific group. Typically, high-achieving students, regardless of race, are to some degree stigmatized as "nerds" or "geeks." The data suggest that school structures, rather than culture, may help explain when this stigma becomes racialized, producing a burden of acting white for black adolescents, and when it becomes class-based, producing a burden of "acting high and mighty" for low-income whites. Recognizing the similarities in these processes can help us refocus and refine understandings of the black�white achievement gap. |
Ah...I was able to find the actual research!
http://www.tc.columbia.edu/students/see/events/Darity_et_al_Understanding_Burden_Acting_White.pdf
For extra credit, take a close look at how the white kids perceive each other when they are in the advanced classes and when they are not. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| So are you saying then that racism is endemic among white people? Wow, Fox, didn't know you had that in you. |
No need to intentionally misinterpret my words in a snide fashion, kabrams.
| kabrams wrote: |
| I graduated in the top percent of my class, and had enough AP credits that when I went off to college, I started as a junior. And not once did anyone ever tease me for "acting white". Why? Because I didn't use my intelligence as a means to distance myself from being a black person...like so many lost black kids do. Also, I wasn't a nerd/geek or people didn't ID me that way. |
It really seems like your position here is, "Yeah, some black kids who do well get ridiculed for acting white, but it's because they really do try to act white." You're essentially blaming the victims. Why shouldn't they be able to distance themselves from being a black person if they want to? Why should they be bound by that culture if they don't want to be? And why are you essentially trying to justify them being ridiculed for it?
| kabrams wrote: |
| I'm not saying there has never been a case of one black kid telling another black kid she's "acting white". But this whole "OMG it's a problem in the black culture" is pure BS. |
If it negatively affects some people, why is it not a problem?
Regarding the study you posted, I have another one for you. It's An Empirical Analysis of "Acting White", by a Harvard economics professor. You can find it by googling the name of the study; the link for it prompted a download for me rather than just opening in a window, so I didn't bother linking to it directly. Here's a clip from the abstract:
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Using a newly available data set (the National
Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health), which allows one to construct an objective measure of a student�s popularity, we demonstrate that there are large racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement; our (albeit narrow) definition of �acting white.� The effect is intensified among high achievers and in schools with more interracial contact, but non-existent among students in predominantly black schools or private schools. |
In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. I find this somewhat questionable; a cultural trait only manifesting in conditions where you're faced with a group of "others" doesn't make it any less real, and given other groups like whites, certain asian populations, etc don't show similar behavior (i.e. attacking high academic achievers for trying to emulate another social group specifically) implies to me that it is a cultural feature. In any case, the important thing is that it's a study which does in fact defend the idea that this phenomenon exists in the black community and has an impact on the academically successful. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:34 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, okay I'm not responding to you until you actually read and respond to the article I posted.
ETA: Actually, no. Let me respond.
Your lack of reading (?) or addressing the article I posted which essentially explains and refutes the original study on "acting white" and its basis as a major part of African American culture is so typical of people who don't really care about answers.
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It really seems like your position here is, "Yeah, some black kids who do well get ridiculed for acting white, but it's because they really do try to act white." You're essentially blaming the victims. Why shouldn't they be able to distance themselves from being a black person if they want to? Why should they be bound by that culture if they don't want to be? And why are you essentially trying to justify them being ridiculed for it?
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Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people.
But of course, the only real issue here is protecting these poor little black people and their feelings.
I don't know what "white is" but "acting white" is defined as acting like whatever said black person thinks white people act like (usually using a fakesccent and then calling that "proper" English) + turning up their noses at other black people.
You act like it black people are crazy for making fun of black kids who do this, lol.
| Quote: |
| If it negatively affects some people, why is it not a problem? |
Um...the conversation wasn't about negatively affecting SOME people. It was about this aversion to education being an major part in black culture.
This was the original statement, in case you forgot:
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"Acting White" has been an issue in young black American culture for quite a while. If a young black person does well in school or speaks proper English he is accused of acting White by his peers. |
I don't like when it does happen, just like I don't like it when poor white people ridicule middle class white people for being stuck up and thinking they are "too good".
Also, I'm not responding to your "new" article, because based on what you noted and highlighted, it is obvious you did NOT read the article I posted, or did not read it clearly enough. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks."
| kabrams wrote: |
| But of course, the only real issue here is protecting these poor little black people and their feelings. |
I don't care about their feelings. I simply think anyone wanting to distance themselves from a totally unsuccessful culture -- by any means they care to engage in -- is completely understandable, and the bitter losers that ridicule them for it are pathetic.
| kabrams wrote: |
| I don't know what "white is" but "acting white" is defined as acting like whatever said black person thinks white people act like (usually using a fakesccent and then calling that "proper" English) + turning up their noses at other black people. |
No, that's how you are trying to define it in order to defend blacks attacking other blacks who -- completely understandably -- want to try to better themselves by adhering to a behavior pattern which has proven itself more conducive to a successful, happy life.
| kabrams wrote: |
| You act like it black people are crazy for making fun of black kids who do this, lol. |
Not crazy, just pathetic.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If it negatively affects some people, why is it not a problem? |
Um...the conversation wasn't about negatively affecting SOME people. It was about this aversion to education being an major part in black culture. |
Why is a cultural trait that negatively affects some people in a culture not a problem with black culture?
| kabrams wrote: |
| I don't like when it does happen, just like I don't like it when poor white people ridicule middle class white people for being stuck up and thinking they are "too good". |
Then stop trying to justify it and defend it. And by the way, the tendency of poor people that you just listed is also a cultural problem.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Also, I'm not responding to your "new" article, because based on what you noted and highlighted, it is obvious you did NOT read the article I posted, or did not read it clearly enough. |
I didn't read your article at all, nor am I going to spend time doing so. If that means you don't want to respond to me, that's fine. The study I posted is sufficient to -- perhaps inadvertedly, given what I feel was the writer's intended purpose -- reinforce in my mind that this is a problem in black culture. Keep denying it all you like, it won't change the reality. When some minorities succeed educationally and others fail, there's a reason behind it, and no, it's not the white man keeping you down. It's cultural. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks." |
No, I'm not saying that at all.
| Fox wrote: |
I don't care about their feelings. I simply think anyone wanting to distance themselves from a totally unsuccessful culture -- by any means they care to engage in -- is completely understandable, and the bitter losers that ridicule them for it are pathetic. |
Oh, so black culture is an "unsuccessful" culture? Seriously? What exactly is "unsuccessful" about black culture, and please, back up your claims with facts and research.
| Fox wrote: |
No, that's how you are trying to define it in order to defend blacks attacking other blacks who -- completely understandably -- want to try to better themselves by adhering to a behavior pattern which has proven itself more conducive to a successful, happy life. |
This does not make sense. Are you actually saying that all this time, getting good grades and going to college and having a job---are all "white" cultural traits?
| Fox wrote: |
Not crazy, just pathetic. |
Mmm...okay.
| Fox wrote: |
Why is a cultural trait that negatively affects some people in a culture not a problem with black culture? |
Why do you keep calling it a black "cultural trait". It's not a black "cultural" trait. For the last time.
| Fox wrote: |
Then stop trying to justify it and defend it. And by the way, the tendency of poor people that you just listed is also a cultural problem. |
Explaining behavior != justification.
It's an AMERICAN cultural problem not specific to one particular race. Some poor white people feeling inadequate != a white cultural problem. Some white people sticking up their noses at poor white kids in their AP classes != a white cultural problem.
| Fox wrote: |
I didn't read your article at all, nor am I going to spend time doing so. If that means you don't want to respond to me, that's fine. The study I posted is sufficient to -- perhaps inadvertedly, given what I feel was the writer's intended purpose -- reinforce in my mind that this is a problem in black culture. Keep denying it all you like, it won't change the reality. When some minorities succeed educationally and others fail, there's a reason behind it, and no, it's not the white man keeping you down. It's cultural. |
So you're willing to make all these weird, biased statements with no actual proof that any of it exists...and then when I present you with actual research done in several schools in urban, rural and suburban areas (with varying "majority" and "minority" status)...you don't even read it?
Right-o. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks." |
No, I'm not saying that at all. |
What would you call ignoring other balck people because of their racial background/skin color except racism, and what would you call your characterization of the situation except a defense of the bullying in question?
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| I don't care about their feelings. I simply think anyone wanting to distance themselves from a totally unsuccessful culture -- by any means they care to engage in -- is completely understandable, and the bitter losers that ridicule them for it are pathetic. |
Oh, so black culture is an "unsuccessful" culture? Seriously? What exactly is "unsuccessful" about black culture, and please, back up your claims with facts and research. |
If you're happy with the level of success blacks have achieved in America, I suppose that's your perrogative. I frankly see them as underachieving by any reasonable standard (and no, I'm not going to dig up statistics to prove the obvious; we all know black achievement in terms of educational and economic success is subpar, and we all know blacks are more likely to become criminals as well). By what measure do you think blacks have succeeded in comparison to, say, whites or asians? The reason for this failure is cultural; there's nothing keeping blacks down but blacks. I don't care if you're willing to accept that or not, honestly; most other blacks aren't, why should you? And in not accepting it, the problem will not be resolved, and the status quo will remain as is. Hope you enjoy it.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
No, that's how you are trying to define it in order to defend blacks attacking other blacks who -- completely understandably -- want to try to better themselves by adhering to a behavior pattern which has proven itself more conducive to a successful, happy life. |
This does not make sense. Are you actually saying that all this time, getting good grades and going to college and having a job---are all "white" cultural traits? |
I'm saying white cultural traits -- and Jewish cultural traits, and the cultural traits of certain Asian groups -- are more conducive to those achievements. But then, I live in reality, so I understand that how one behaves actually impacts how successful one will be.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Why is a cultural trait that negatively affects some people in a culture not a problem with black culture? |
Why do you keep calling it a black "cultural trait". It's not a black "cultural" trait. For the last time. |
You're welcome to feel that way. I've got no problem with you being wrong. I wonder if you'll stick to that, "For the last time," promise. 
| kabrams wrote: |
| It's an AMERICAN cultural problem not specific to one particular race. |
Believe what you want to. I'm sure many other blacks feel the same way as you, and as such the problem wont' get resolved. Don't complain about the results.
| kabrams wrote: |
| So you're willing to make all these weird, biased statements with no actual proof that any of it exists... |
I posted proof, and sufficient proof for me to feel comfortable in my stance that this phenomenon exists, and is at least partly responsible for black academic underachievement. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks." |
No, I'm not saying that at all. |
What would you call ignoring other balck people because of their racial background/skin color except racism, and what would you call your characterization of the situation except a defense of the bullying in question? |
How exactly is it a defense? Again, for the slow people in the back, explanation != defense.
| Fox wrote: |
If you're happy with the level of success blacks have achieved in America, I suppose that's your perrogative. I frankly see them as underachieving by any reasonable standard (and no, I'm not going to dig up statistics to prove the obvious; we all know black achievement in terms of educational and economic success is subpar, and we all know blacks are more likely to become criminals as well). By what measure do you think blacks have succeeded in comparison to, say, whites or asians? The reason for this failure is cultural; there's nothing keeping blacks down but blacks. I don't care if you're willing to accept that or not, honestly; most other blacks aren't, why should you? And in not accepting it, the problem will not be resolved, and the status quo will remain as is. Hope you enjoy it. |
You didn't answer the question.
| Fox wrote: |
I'm saying white cultural traits -- and Jewish cultural traits, and the cultural traits of certain Asian groups -- are more conducive to those achievements. But then, I live in reality, so I understand that how one behaves actually impacts how successful one will be. |
Like what, exactly? You keep skirting around the issue without actually saying...anything. Say what you mean and mean what you say.
| Fox wrote: |
You're welcome to feel that way. I've got no problem with you being wrong. I wonder if you'll stick to that, "For the last time," promise. |
Seeing as I have research that backs me up it's not the way I "feel". Then again, you didn't read the research and don't intend on doing so.
| Fox wrote: |
| Believe what you want to. I'm sure many other blacks feel the same way as you, and as such the problem wont' get resolved. Don't complain about the results. |
LOL.
| Fox wrote: |
I posted proof, and sufficient proof for me to feel comfortable in my stance that this phenomenon exists, and is at least partly responsible for black academic underachievement. |
This is like someone reading only research that says the Earth is flat, and then concluding that the Earth is indeed flat based on that evidence alone...without once glancing at other evidence that shows the Earth is not flat.
LOL.
This reminds me of all the people who say "There are more black men in prison than in college" or "Most people on welfare are black women"...without actually picking up a book or looking at statistics/evidence.
Why do I even respond to you? Oh yeah, sometimes you seem like you know what's going on, and then you start with this mess. Oh well. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks." |
No, I'm not saying that at all. |
What would you call ignoring other balck people because of their racial background/skin color except racism, and what would you call your characterization of the situation except a defense of the bullying in question? |
How exactly is it a defense? Again, for the slow people in the back, explanation != defense. |
Trying to blame the victims by saying they're racist is an obvious defense of the actions in question. I'm not entertaining this point further; if you want to pretend you're not defending these actions while simultaneously defending them, then you can do it.
| kabrams wrote: |
| You didn't answer the question. |
Yes, I did. You just recognized that responding to my answer would put you in a difficult situation no matter how you approached it, so you're dodging.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I'm saying white cultural traits -- and Jewish cultural traits, and the cultural traits of certain Asian groups -- are more conducive to those achievements. But then, I live in reality, so I understand that how one behaves actually impacts how successful one will be. |
Like what, exactly? You keep skirting around the issue without actually saying...anything. Say what you mean and mean what you say. |
Think it through for yourself, I'm not here to teach you about other people's cultures. You go ahead and keep trying to defend a culture with a proven track record of underperformance.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
You're welcome to feel that way. I've got no problem with you being wrong. I wonder if you'll stick to that, "For the last time," promise. |
Seeing as I have research that backs me up it's not the way I "feel". Then again, you didn't read the research and don't intend on doing so. |
It's 100% about how you feel. The only reason you support the study in question is because you think it backs up your feelings on the subject. So let's not pretend otherwise.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I posted proof, and sufficient proof for me to feel comfortable in my stance that this phenomenon exists, and is at least partly responsible for black academic underachievement. |
This is like someone reading only research that says the Earth is flat, and then concluding that the Earth is indeed flat based on that evidence alone...without once glancing at other evidence that shows the Earth is not flat. |
You liken the research of a black Harvard professor on this topic to research regarding the flatness of the Earth? That's interesting, kabrams.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Why do I even respond to you? Oh yeah, sometimes you seem like you know what's going on, and then you start with this mess. Oh well. |
I have no problem agreeing with you on other matters and disagreeing on this one. If you feel like it's too frustrating to engage me on this particular topic, you don't need to. If you do engage me on the topic, though, there's no point in being frustrated or irritated when I express the ideas you know I'm going to express. I'm simply not willing to get into the "blame other social groups for the problems of blacks" game. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Now! Let's address that article you posted!!!!! 
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It is imperative to note that there is nothing unique about Black culture. A version of �acting white� is also prevalent in ethnographies involving the Buraku Outcastes of Japan (DeVos and Wagatsuma 1966), Italian immigrants in Boston's West End (Gans 1962), the Maori of New Zealand (Chapple, Jefferies, and Walker (1997), and the working class in Britain (Willis 1977), among others. In all cases high achievers receive a
derogatory label from their peer group. For example, in the peer group society documented in Gans (1962), upward mobile youth interested in education were labeled �mobiles� and �sissies.� |
Yeah, what I've been saying from the very beginning. It's not a black cultural practice, it's an "EVERYONE" practice. The only reason why it's attributed to black culture in this particular study is because the topic is about black culture.
See how that works?
Also, the definition of "acting white" by the article is admittedly extremely narrow:
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| We focus on racial differences in the relationship between popularity and academic achievement, our (albeit narrow) definition of �acting white�. |
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As such, for the purposes of this paper, we say
�acting white� exists if there are statistically significant racial differences in the relationship between popularity and grades. |
And by "popularity" the study means how many same-race friends a student has with each increase in G.P.A.
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| Each student was asked to list 10 friends in their school. Instead of using raw counts, our measure of popularity for an individual i depends on the number of same-race students, j, that list i as a friend, weighted by the popularity of each j.11 |
They mention that they used same-race friendships because it fit with the definition of "acting white" but that definition (by their own admission) is already very narrow.
Now:
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| Consider an elite middle school � Markovian � which consists of 15 students:Larry, Andrei, Franziska, Claudia, Phillip, Jeremy, Jens, Ronald, Gerhard, Katherine, Rachel, Drew, Jerry, Matt, and Loser. The top panel of Table 2 shows the (hypothetical) data gleaned from these individuals when they were asked to list 5 friends. Larry includes Gerhard, Claudia, Andrei, and Jens as friends, while Jeremy only list Andrei and Gerhard. Loser�s list contains the same students as Larry�s, but no one else has loser on their list. This will be reflected in his popularity. Recall, our measure of popularity for an individual i depends on the number of students, j, that list i as a friend, weighted by the popularity of each j. |
LOL they call the one kid "Loser"!!!
Anyway, this is interesting, but it still doesn't prove that everyone on Loser's list bullies him or even thinks he's "acting white". There is also no evidence that shows anyone else in the school bullying or saying Loser is "acting white". >.>
Then again, acting white is defined by this study as a decrease in same-race friends with an increase of G.P.A. (For black people, this happens at around a G.P.A. of 3.5.)
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| There are several noteworthy caveats to our measure of popularity. First, it is possible that, given our data, we are not capturing the most popular kids in schools. It is possible that the captain of the football team or the most beautiful female students are quite �popular,� but few others report them as friends. Similarly, to the extent that students have friendship connections outside of school (through religious groups, boy scouts, and so on), these connections will not be captured in our index. |
And this is one of my biggest problems with the study. Growing up, being "popular" didn't mean you had the most friends (same race or not). There were elite groups and groups inside and outside of school. Many times, kids were "popular" and had no idea that they were popular. Or, they were popular by association (i.e. having family members who were popular).
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Further, our measure is objective and does not
depend on individual notions of popularity. |
But that's exactly what "popularity" is. I know people who were well known, but never popular. They are using a physical definition of popularity, not a social one.
Although, the stats in their study line up to what you would generally expect (i.e. sports team members and student government members are more popular than kids in the math club or book club).
Things I found interesting:
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| In private schools, Whites with higher grades are not as popular as their lower achieving peers; the most popular students have a GPA of roughly 2.0 (C average). |
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One caveat: black high achieving boys have fewer friends
than black high achieving girls. |
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| �Acting White� is large in public schools and non-existent among blacks in private schools. |
| Quote: |
| We also investigated the number of fights that a student had been involved in as a measure of popularity (or social status more generally). There were marked differences in the relationship between grades and fights; black students were much more likely to be involved in fights as their grades increased. |
I wonder how they define "fight".
And, perhaps the most interesting statement in the entire thing:
| Quote: |
Blacks and Hispanics with a GPA above
3.5 are actually losing other-race friends, exacerbating the effect of �acting white� among this select group. This result is troubling, as one would hope that high achieving minority students could find refuge among high achieving whites. |
Well, well, well.
Some conclusions from the research:
| Quote: |
The most striking aspect of tables 4 and 5 is how the coefficient on �acting white� varies in arenas with more or less interracial contact. Remarkably, schools that are less than 20 percent black have the largest �acting white� effect for Blacks and Hispanics. Schools in which blacks comprise greater than 80% of the student body there is no�acting white� effect. Indeed, in all black schools, the coefficient on black*grades is
positive. |
So, um...doesn't this effectively get rid of the idea that:
| Quote: |
| "Acting White" has been an issue in young black American culture for quite a while. If a young black person does well in school or speaks proper English he is accused of acting White by his peers. |
What the research concludes:
| Quote: |
| Finally, we argue (and provide circumstantial evidence) that �acting white� is an equilibrium phenomenon, the consequence of two-audience signaling; not self-sabotage among blacks or the result of an oppositional cultural identity that declares education useless. While the evidence in favor of the two-audience signaling model is far from overwhelming, it is the only model we consider that does not directly contradict the data in fundamental ways. |
| Quote: |
| This reticence could be due, in part, to the fear that some may equate �acting white� with Black cultural dysfunctionality. Yet, economic theory informs us that �acting white� is an equilibrium phenomenon; it is the consequence of two-audience signaling (see Austen-Smith and Fryer 2005). As such, any group presented with the same set of payoffs, strategies, and so on, would behave identically. |
So the article that YOU listed actually agrees (at least partially) with me in the end.
This is why you must read.
| Fox wrote: |
| In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. |
And THIS comment shows me that you didn't read the paper at all! Wow, why would you post something you did not read and then claim it proves your point?
Did you seriously just read the abstract? Hahaha, OMG please tell me you did not just read the abstract. Tell me you at least skimmed the thing. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| kabrams wrote: |
| Yeah, you have no idea what "distancing themselves from being black" actually means, do you? It's not simply "Yeah, I'll hang out with all white people" or "I'll act in a manner that I think seems white." It most often includes ridiculing or ignoring other black people because of their racial background or the color of their skin or making disparaging comments about other "types" of black people. |
Okay, so now you're saying, "I support these kids who "act white" being ridiculed because I think they're racist against other blacks." |
No, I'm not saying that at all. |
What would you call ignoring other balck people because of their racial background/skin color except racism, and what would you call your characterization of the situation except a defense of the bullying in question? |
How exactly is it a defense? Again, for the slow people in the back, explanation != defense. |
Trying to blame the victims by saying they're racist is an obvious defense of the actions in question. I'm not entertaining this point further; if you want to pretend you're not defending these actions while simultaneously defending them, then you can do it.
| kabrams wrote: |
| You didn't answer the question. |
Yes, I did. You just recognized that responding to my answer would put you in a difficult situation no matter how you approached it, so you're dodging.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I'm saying white cultural traits -- and Jewish cultural traits, and the cultural traits of certain Asian groups -- are more conducive to those achievements. But then, I live in reality, so I understand that how one behaves actually impacts how successful one will be. |
Like what, exactly? You keep skirting around the issue without actually saying...anything. Say what you mean and mean what you say. |
Think it through for yourself, I'm not here to teach you about other people's cultures. You go ahead and keep trying to defend a culture with a proven track record of underperformance.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
You're welcome to feel that way. I've got no problem with you being wrong. I wonder if you'll stick to that, "For the last time," promise. |
Seeing as I have research that backs me up it's not the way I "feel". Then again, you didn't read the research and don't intend on doing so. |
It's 100% about how you feel. The only reason you support the study in question is because you think it backs up your feelings on the subject. So let's not pretend otherwise.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
I posted proof, and sufficient proof for me to feel comfortable in my stance that this phenomenon exists, and is at least partly responsible for black academic underachievement. |
This is like someone reading only research that says the Earth is flat, and then concluding that the Earth is indeed flat based on that evidence alone...without once glancing at other evidence that shows the Earth is not flat. |
You liken the research of a black Harvard professor on this topic to research regarding the flatness of the Earth? That's interesting, kabrams.
| kabrams wrote: |
| Why do I even respond to you? Oh yeah, sometimes you seem like you know what's going on, and then you start with this mess. Oh well. |
I have no problem agreeing with you on other matters and disagreeing on this one. If you feel like it's too frustrating to engage me on this particular topic, you don't need to. If you do engage me on the topic, though, there's no point in being frustrated or irritated when I express the ideas you know I'm going to express. I'm simply not willing to get into the "blame other social groups for the problems of blacks" game. |
Yeah, whatever, Fox. You didn't even read the research and yet you're trying to have an actual discussion?
No. Just...no.
Why don't you actually read both papers so you know what you're talking about. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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I'm going to focus on the one point I feel really summarizes this entire case and why I'm not taking your position as seriously as I otherwise might:
| kabrams wrote: |
What the research concludes:
| Quote: |
| This reticence could be due, in part, to the fear that some may equate �acting white� with Black cultural dysfunctionality. Yet, economic theory informs us that �acting white� is an equilibrium phenomenon; it is the consequence of two-audience signaling (see Austen-Smith and Fryer 2005). As such, any group presented with the same set of payoffs, strategies, and so on, would behave identically. |
So the article that YOU listed actually agrees (at least partially) with me in the end. |
No, it doesn't agree with you, because of the inclusion of, "... same set of payoffs, strategies, and so on..." Why is this relevent? Because black culture is what figures into those payoffs, strategies, and "so ons;" it's the primary differing factor, after all. This is why other minority groups like certain Asian immigrants and Jews can achieve academic success without similar consequences; they don't create these negative consequences for themselves, because they don't partake in a culture of self-destruction. Yes, other groups in the same situation would behave identically, but many other groups aren't in the same situation, and the primary differing factor is culture. Otherwise we'd all be in the same situation, but we aren't.
And as an aside, the talk about how blacks perform in non-integrated schools is also a total red herring. The fact that a cultural trait only manifests in mixed-group environments doesn't make it any less real.
| kabrams wrote: |
| This is why you must read. |
Are you being ironic?
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. |
And THIS comment shows me that you didn't read the paper at all! Wow, why would you post something you did not read and then claim it proves your point? |
I don't blame you for being confused, given his wording is intentionally obfuscatory, but ultimately the text of mine you quoted is descriptive of what he's doing. He's just using more arcane language to say it. And given people like you are his target audience, you fell for it instead of considering the realities behind his words. He admits the phenomenon occurs, tries to shift it away from black culture by saying, "Any group in the same situation would do it," but what he doesn't say is that the reason blacks are in that situation and other groups aren't is the very cultural dysfunction he's trying and failing to explain away. This is why I characterized the article as I did:
| Fox wrote: |
| In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. I find this somewhat questionable; a cultural trait only manifesting in conditions where you're faced with a group of "others" doesn't make it any less real, and given other groups like whites, certain asian populations, etc don't show similar behavior (i.e. attacking high academic achievers for trying to emulate another social group specifically) implies to me that it is a cultural feature. In any case, the important thing is that it's a study which does in fact defend the idea that this phenomenon exists in the black community and has an impact on the academically successful. |
I'm still not wasting any time reading your article. Sorry. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
I'm going to focus on the one point I feel really summarizes this entire case and why I'm not taking your position as seriously as I otherwise might:
| kabrams wrote: |
What the research concludes:
| Quote: |
| This reticence could be due, in part, to the fear that some may equate �acting white� with Black cultural dysfunctionality. Yet, economic theory informs us that �acting white� is an equilibrium phenomenon; it is the consequence of two-audience signaling (see Austen-Smith and Fryer 2005). As such, any group presented with the same set of payoffs, strategies, and so on, would behave identically. |
So the article that YOU listed actually agrees (at least partially) with me in the end. |
No, it doesn't agree with you, because of the inclusion of, "... same set of payoffs, strategies, and so on..." Why is this relevent? Because black culture is what figures into those payoffs, strategies, and "so ons;" it's the primary differing factor, after all. This is why other minority groups like certain Asian immigrants and Jews can achieve academic success without similar consequences; they don't create these negative consequences for themselves, because they don't partake in a culture of self-destruction. Yes, other groups in the same situation would behave identically, but many other groups aren't in the same situation, and the primary differing factor is culture. Otherwise we'd all be in the same situation, but we aren't.
And as an aside, the talk about how blacks perform in non-integrated schools is also a total red herring. The fact that a cultural trait only manifests in mixed-group environments doesn't make it any less real.
| kabrams wrote: |
| This is why you must read. |
Are you being ironic?
| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. |
And THIS comment shows me that you didn't read the paper at all! Wow, why would you post something you did not read and then claim it proves your point? |
I don't blame you for being confused, given his wording is intentionally obfuscatory, but ultimately the text of mine you quoted is descriptive of what he's doing. He's just using more arcane language to say it. And given people like you are his target audience, you fell for it instead of considering the realities behind his words. He admits the phenomenon occurs, tries to shift it away from black culture by saying, "Any group in the same situation would do it," but what he doesn't say is that the reason blacks are in that situation and other groups aren't is the very cultural dysfunction he's trying and failing to explain away. This is why I characterized the article as I did:
| Fox wrote: |
| In short, he says that this phenomenon does exist, but tries to shift the blame for it away from black culture by noting that in situations with minimal interracial contact it diminishes. I find this somewhat questionable; a cultural trait only manifesting in conditions where you're faced with a group of "others" doesn't make it any less real, and given other groups like whites, certain asian populations, etc don't show similar behavior (i.e. attacking high academic achievers for trying to emulate another social group specifically) implies to me that it is a cultural feature. In any case, the important thing is that it's a study which does in fact defend the idea that this phenomenon exists in the black community and has an impact on the academically successful. |
I'm still not wasting any time reading your article. Sorry. |
No. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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Okay. |
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