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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| English Matt wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
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| Do not conflate illegal economic migrants with asylum seekers. Also, see my previous post on why you should not conflate crime with the colour of a persons skin or religion |
How they enter the country in my opinion is irrelevant. Many asylum applications are clearly fraudulent, and I do not see why escaping political persecution should be thought of as morally superior to escaping grinding poverty. That said, we are a tiny country, with a massive unemployment problem, and rising social tensions. Allowing hundreds of thousands of people from culturally unassimilable cultures to enter the country makes no sense. |
Oh good lord, you aren't English are you? You're the reason I left. Isn't Stormfront a better venue for someone like you with clearly Nationalist beliefs? Although from looking at some of what is written on this current events forum, maybe your here because Stormfront was a bit too soft and you needed somewhere a bit more hardcore to post. |
Pathetic. |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Isn't Stormfront a better venue for someone like you with clearly Nationalist beliefs? |
Haven't you received the memo? The win discussions with pejoratives doesn't work anymore. |
Simply calling it as I see buddy. Any fair minded individual can see that this thread, indeed many threads on this forum, are frequented by a number of individuals whose postings are soap boxes for them to pour forth on the virtues of mono-cultural societies. I do hope you all see the irony in the fact that you are contributing to the growing multiculturalism of this country. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Simply calling it as I see buddy. |
Instead of 'calling it as you see it', why don't you dispute something I actually said. Of course, that would require you to produce something resembling an argument, backed by evidence.
Much easier to assume that anyone who opposes your Guardian-esque defence of the wonders of diversity is a closet Nazi who wants to send all 'darkies' home. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:44 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Isn't Stormfront a better venue for someone like you with clearly Nationalist beliefs? |
Haven't you received the memo? The win discussions with pejoratives doesn't work anymore. |
I think dude is new to the forum. Just my guess.
Europe might be better off restricting immigration more tightly for awhile. I'm not so much worried about the threatened dangers as I am sober on the imagined benefits. |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Simply calling it as I see buddy. |
Instead of 'calling it as you see it', why don't you dispute something I actually said. Of course, that would require you to produce something resembling an argument, backed by evidence.
Much easier to assume that anyone who opposes your Guardian-esque defence of the wonders of diversity is a closet Nazi who wants to send all 'darkies' home. |
The reason I have decided not to enter into a debate is that we are clearly not going to alter one anothers opinions....it would be a waste of time, particularly as the majority of posters in this thread seem to be in agreement with one another. It would be like Karl Marx giving a lecture on economic theory to the Conservative Party....it'd go down like a lead balloon.
Sorry for the Stormfront comment, it was out of order.....I do believe you hold Nationalist views (that is not to infer that you are Ultra-Nationalist however) and I personally do find those sorts of views to be morally repugnant. That should not allow me to cast aspersions on you and your character though in the manner that I did. My argument is with the views you hold and not you as a person. My apologies for that. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| My argument is with the views you hold and not you as a person. My apologies for that. |
Thanks for the apology.
Personally, I don't think my views are that extreme. I simply believe the UK cannot take any more immigrants, and that such high levels of immigration will lead to serious problems in the future. I think the majority of British people would agree. The debate on this issue has been severely damaged if such views are 'morally repugnant'. |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| My argument is with the views you hold and not you as a person. My apologies for that. |
Thanks for the apology.
Personally, I don't think my views are that extreme. I simply believe the UK cannot take any more immigrants, and that such high levels of immigration will lead to serious problems in the future. I think the majority of British people would agree. The debate on this issue has been severely damaged if such views are 'morally repugnant'. |
I hold Nationalist beliefs such as those held by people like Nick Griffin to be morally repugnant. My personal opinion is that immigration is doing damage in certain areas because funds are not being properly allocated to help account for large increases in immigrant communities in certain towns and cities around the country.....not enough money is being allocated to schools and hospitals to account for the very real increases in the local populations. This is leading to a degradation of public infrastructure in said areas. The presence of immigrants however, in and of itself, I do not believe to be a cause for concern. The way in which public funds are allocated to deal with new arrivals is.....and it's not a one way street, immigrants often fill jobs that need doing (they build houses, they clean streets, washrooms, they work as doctors and teachers). If public funds are allocated appropriately they can help to manage the economic and cultural assimilation of immigrants into British society and ensure that there is a net gain to all parties.
Asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are a different kettle of fish and do not fit into the above discourse. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: |
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The British deficit is 12.6% of GDP.
Where do you want these "funds" for non-citizens to come from? Where will the money for new infrastructure to keep up with forced population growth come from? What services, programs, wages will you cut to pay for it? Should the state raise taxes on citizens to give goodies to non-citizens? Supporting that would suggest you're a covert BNP operative.
Or do you think money grows on trees and the state just needs to plant more money trees?
Please. Offer a coherent explanation. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| I hold Nationalist beliefs such as those held by people like Nick Griffin to be morally repugnant. |
Yes, holocaust denial and spreading racial hatred are indeed morally repugnant, but just because you oppose mass immigration, does not mean you support Nick Griffin or his worldview.
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| If public funds are allocated appropriately they can help to manage the economic and cultural assimilation of immigrants into British society and ensure that there is a net gain to all parties. |
Leaving aside the fact that immigration is of negligible economic benefit to the average Brit (although it certainly benefits the rich), where are the 'funds' going to come from, considering that we are effectively bankrupt? |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| English Matt wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My argument is with the views you hold and not you as a person. My apologies for that. |
Thanks for the apology.
Personally, I don't think my views are that extreme. I simply believe the UK cannot take any more immigrants, and that such high levels of immigration will lead to serious problems in the future. I think the majority of British people would agree. The debate on this issue has been severely damaged if such views are 'morally repugnant'. |
I hold Nationalist beliefs such as those held by people like Nick Griffin to be morally repugnant. My personal opinion is that immigration is doing damage in certain areas because funds are not being properly allocated to help account for large increases in immigrant communities in certain towns and cities around the country.....not enough money is being allocated to schools and hospitals to account for the very real increases in the local populations. This is leading to a degradation of public infrastructure in said areas. The presence of immigrants however, in and of itself, I do not believe to be a cause for concern. The way in which public funds are allocated to deal with new arrivals is.....and it's not a one way street, immigrants often fill jobs that need doing (they build houses, they clean streets, washrooms, they work as doctors and teachers). If public funds are allocated appropriately they can help to manage the economic and cultural assimilation of immigrants into British society and ensure that there is a net gain to all parties.
Asylum seekers and illegal immigrants are a different kettle of fish and do not fit into the above discourse. |
Where does this sense of entitlement come from? How is it any less "morally repugnant" to coercively take money from the public (taxes) and give it other people, whether they're immigrants or fellow citizens?? The real issue is whether or not they can fend for themselves without infringing on the rights of other people (ie. breaking the law) or getting a free ride. Immigrants who have attained legal status should legally have the same opportunities as anyone else to make money and succeed. They should not be entitled to special privileges or handouts from taxpayers. Nobody should be "entitled" to other peoples' money, unless it is earned.
As for illegal immigrants, sorry but they should be thrown out. There are plenty of other honest people waiting in line already. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| English Matt wrote: |
I hold Nationalist beliefs such as those held by people like Nick Griffin to be morally repugnant. |
Do you find socialist beliefs such as those held by people like Nick Griffin to be economically repugnant?
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ECONOMY � British workers first!
Globalisation, with its export of jobs to the Third World, is bringing ruin and unemployment to British industries and the communities that depend on them. Accordingly, the BNP calls for the selective exclusion of foreign-made goods from British markets and the reduction of foreign imports. We will ensure that our manufactured goods are, wherever possible, produced in British factories, employing British workers. When this is done, unemployment in this country will be brought to an end, and secure, well-paid employment will flourish, at last getting our people back to work. We will take active steps to break up the socially, economically and politically damaging monopolies now being established by the supermarket giants.
HEALTH � first-class healthcare for all!
We are wholly committed to a free, fully funded National Health Service for all British citizens
TRANSPORT � time to invest!
Increased investment is needed in Britain�s public transport system
http://bnp.org.uk/2008/08/policies-manifesto/ |
The Guardian brigade and the BNP have a great deal of common ground. The BNP might be socially unliberal, but no matter, since clearly they share the left's hatred of the ultimate sin - the market economy! True conservatives - opponents of socialism - find the BNP's ideas deadly. Something to ponder next time you feel like bashing British conservativism with the fascism of the BNP. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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The Welfare State: Europe v US
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This paper provides new evidence on job search intensity of the unemployed in the U.S. (time allocated to job search activities). The major findings are:
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1) the average U.S. unemployed worker devotes about 41 min to job search on weekdays, which is substantially more than their European counterparts
3) across the 50 states, job search is inversely related to the generosity of unemployment benefits, with an elasticity between −1.6 and −2.2 |
While this specific information is new the basic idea isn't. Richard Layard has been saying much the same thing for decades:
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| If you pay people to be inactive, there will be more inactivity. Europe has a notorious unemployment problem. But if you break down unemployment into shortterm (under a year) and long-term, you find that short-term unemployment is almost the same in Europe as in the U.S. � around 4% of the workforce. But in Europe there are another 4% who have been out of work for over a year, compared with almost none in the United States. The most obvious explanation for this is that in the U.S. unemployment benefits run out after 6 months, while in most of Europe they continue for many years or indefinitely. |
People really do respond to incentives, and generous and long lasting unemployment benefits really do provide an incentive not to look for work all that hard
http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/welfare/and-the-old-shall-become-new-again/ |
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conrad2
Joined: 05 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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English Matt:
How much of your personal income do you give directly to immigrants? Have you opened your home to newly landed immigrants? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| English Matt wrote: |
| The fact that these people are Mexicans has very little reason to do with a dispropotionate amount being involved in criminal activities when compared to other demographics in the US. |
I don't care why they're involved in a disproportionate amount of crime in the US. I don't even care if they don't involve themselves in crime if they aren't providing more value than the average native-born citizen. Immigration isn't a right; any country which possesses a social services system simply can't let an endless number of immigrants in. I used unskilled Mexicans as an example, but unskilled Europeans or Asians or what have you are just as bad.
It comes down to this: if an immigrant would provide more value than the current average citizen, it's wise to let them in. If an immigrant would provide equal value to an average citizen, whether or not you should let them in should be grounded in considerations regarding your society's current situation (e.g. during an economic crisis with high unemployment, letting such people in isn't wise). If an immigrant would provide less value than an average citizen, you should almost invariably be rejecting them. These people who are just "seeking a better life" are the ultimate in selfishness: fleeing a country which is underperforming because of their ineffective culture in hopes of leeching off of a better-performing culture. I can understand why they would be interested in doing it, but why should we tolerate it? We shouldn't, frankly.
| English Matt wrote: |
| Poverty breeds criminal behaviour, not skin colour or religious beliefs. |
If so, that's just another reason to avoid letting unskilled immigrants into the country, as they're likely to end up impoverished, and thus more likely to lean towards crime. I don't care what their skin color is, I care how they'll affect my society. And Europe needs to start caring too. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| nautilus wrote: |
I am all for immigration and granting assylum.
So long as the immigrants will ultimately assimilate and become good citizens.
Sadly this seems to not to be the case with muslims however. And only muslims. |
.... Forcing others to change their culture to fit in ..... where have we heard that before.
This is no enlightenment, it is simple Xenophobia, and yes, Europe has it's fair deal of it. |
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