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Europe Comes Down Hard on Foreigners
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject:

Juregen wrote:

.... Forcing others to change their culture to fit in ..... where have we heard that before.

This is no enlightenment, it is simple Xenophobia, and yes, Europe has it's fair deal of it.

I don't think taking issue with potential immigrants riotting, starting cars on fire, and insisting the entire nation needs to convert to Shari'a Law is properly classified as xenophobia, Juregen. It's not like anyone's taking issue with the fact that Muslims don't eat pork, or that Mexicans view personal space differently than many people of European descent. Differences in culture are fine, so long as they don't lead to social unrest. If differences in culture would lead to social unrest, then there's good reason to deny immigrants of those culture ingress into your society.

Last edited by Fox on Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

geldedgoat

Joined: 05 Mar 2009

Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:04 pm Post subject:

On the other hand wrote:

Quote:

How many foreign English instructors enter Korea and obtain work illegally?

Does that illegal work include private tutoring?

You should have read illegally as applying equally to both enter and obtain.

English Matt wrote:

How many English teachers come from third or second world countries? How many English teachers live below the poverty line here in Korea?

This comment is completely unrelated to everything I said. An individual's country of origin or economic condition has nothing at all to do with the ethics of illegal immigration.

Quote:

Some will turn to crime to survive, others will turn to crime to exploit the weaker elements of this society (i.e. work as coyotes, force women into prostitution, get others to act as drug mules, etc) in order to personally benefit themselves......in essence it is a bare-knuckles microcosm of capitalism.

I know some people love to ascribe a tendency to be more likely to commit crime / be more violent / be less trustworthy (and so on) to a group of people based upon their religion or race, however this (IMO) is nothing but thinly veiled racism and bigotry.

Here's an (admittedly) simplified explanation for how gang violence works: First, a market for illegal goods or services must open (in this case, illegal immigration). Second, those engaged in the trade of these illegal goods and services require protection (as we all do), but are forced to turn to people outside of government-sanctioned law enforcement. Third, gangs are created to fill this gap. And finally, the zones of control established by these gangs lead to conflict with other gangs, law enforcement, and sometimes citizens operating outside of the protection industry.

So yes, you're right, the religion and/or race of those involved has no intrinsic effect on violence and crime, but that does not mean we should ignore the realities of illegal immigration. An individual of Mexican ancestry living in the U.S. may indeed be a law-abiding, contributing member of society, but that doesn't mean we should turn a blind-eye to the hordes of his distant relatives pouring over our border.

Quote:

The fact that these people are Mexicans has very little reason to do with a dispropotionate amount being involved in criminal activities when compared to other demographics in the US.

The fact that they're Mexican (or, in the case of Europe, African, Middle Eastern, Muslim, etc) also has little to do with a nation and its people wanting to tighten the international borders to keep unwanted elements out.

To reiterate my point, our situation as invited, skilled laborers in Korea is not remotely comparable to the illegal immigration of squatters, unskilled laborers, and gangs in the U.S. and Europe.

nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:02 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Most Muslims immigrants don't commit crimes, but that doesn't stop you from being verbally aggressive towards them. Perhaps you should practice what you preach. If the activity of a minority of Muslim immigrants is sufficient to earn your ire, then you are hardly in a position to criticize others for feeling similarly about other groups.

Mexicans will integrate after an initially troubled first generation, because they don't preserve an inescapable separatist religion from generation to generation. As muslims do.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:24 am Post subject:

nautilus wrote:

Fox wrote:

Mexicans will integrate after an initially troubled first generation, because they don't preserve an inescapable separatist religion from generation to generation. As muslims do.

What are you basing this upon? I've met Muslims who, despite their "separatist" religion, have integrated into society just fine. Likewise, in my home town (in Wisconsin, mind you), we had a population of Mexicans who were quite segregated, and because they lived in close proximity to one another, have remained relatively segregated beyond a single generation. Likewise, we have a sizeable Eastern European population that also tends towards segregation. My younger brother worked as apartment building manager for a building which was largely filled with such immigrants, and from what he said, these people were boarderline hostile to native United States citizens, preferring to interact with others of their group.

Simply put, I don't think this is the clear-cut case you're construing it as. I think there's good reason to look unfavorably on unskilled individuals immigrating from Muslim countries, just like you say. I just think there's equally good reason to look unfavorably on unskilled immigration from other countries as well. All that matters is how much of an asset a given immigrant will be to their new country.

nautilus

Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:48 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

All that matters is how much of an asset a given immigrant will be to their new country.

Plenty of home-grown islamic terrorists have been pillars of society. Doctors and professionals.

Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:43 am Post subject:

nautilus wrote:

Fox wrote:

All that matters is how much of an asset a given immigrant will be to their new country.

Plenty of home-grown islamic terrorists have been pillars of society. Doctors and professionals.

Not allowing Muslim doctors or other professionals to immigrate because an inestimable minority of them (no idea why you're using the word "plenty" to describe what is really "a few") happened to engage in criminal behavior is just silly. If something like 1 in 10 Muslim doctors went terrorist, you'd have an excellent point. I don't know the specific figure, but I somehow doubt even 1% of Muslim doctors went on to engage in terrorism.

I don't blame you for taking issue with Islam, but if you're going to take issue with potential Muslim immigrants based on statistical trends (such as propensity for criminal activity or tendency to avoid assimilating) and not apply the same thought process to other potential immigrants, I'm just going to be confused.

tiger fancini

Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:59 am Post subject:

nautilus wrote:

Fox wrote:

All that matters is how much of an asset a given immigrant will be to their new country.

Plenty of home-grown islamic terrorists have been pillars of society. Doctors and professionals.

Plenty? Do you have any figures? I'm betting it's nowhere near the number of home-grown Muslims who are pillars of society, doctors and professionals, who have managed to NOT become terrorists.

The problem with Islam in the UK, as I see it, is that the Muslim population as a whole has not re-assured the natives that it doesn't want England to become an Islamic republic.

Links about 'Britain's Islamic Republic'

http://bikyamasr.com/?p=9544

This first one is written by a Muslim UK correspondent who says:

"Andrew Gilligan tries to have us believe that British Muslims are mobilizing to impose Sharia Law. Apart from the fact that most British Muslims do not want Sharia in the UK, there is another reason that Gilligan clearly has not researched the topic properly. Had he ever attended a Muslim event in Britian, he would know that British Muslims are far, far too disorganized to even coordinate one prayer time or even agree on what day Eid al-Fitr falls. A harsh generalization? Yes, but true nevertheless."

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2009/02/07/the-islamic-republic-of-great-britain/

This second one states that:

'Not satisfied with having won the right to practice Shari�a Law for domestic issues, now the Muslims want all of England to be ruled by Shari�a. Protest scenes like this are becoming commonplace in the streets of the new capital of the emerging Islamic State of Great Britain.'

It's followed up with some video footage of a Muslim protests in London.

I really want to believe the first writer, and all of the Muslims that I've personally known seem to come from the same angle as her. But video, images and sensationalist reporting do make a big impression on people.

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