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Swedish artist has no regrets / Jihad Jane captured
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madoka



Joined: 27 Mar 2008

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Swedish artist has no regrets / Jihad Jane captured Reply with quote

Can't decide whether this guy is really brave or foolhardy given what happened to Theo Van Gogh.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100310/ap_on_re_eu/eu_sweden_prophet_drawing

The point of a caricature depicting the Prophet Muhammad as a dog was to show that artistic freedom allows mockery of all religions, including the most sacred symbols of Islam, the Swedish artist who created it said Wednesday.

Lars Vilks � the target of an alleged murder plot involving an American woman who dubbed herself "Jihad Jane" � told The Associated Press he has no regrets about the drawing, which is considered deeply offensive by many Muslims.

"I'm actually not interested in offending the prophet. The point is actually to show that you can," Vilks said in an interview in Stockholm. "There is nothing so holy you can't offend it."

Vilks made his rough sketch showing Muhammad's head on a dog's body more than a year after 12 Danish newspaper cartoons of the prophet sparked furious protests in Muslim countries in 2006.

Islamic law generally opposes any depiction of the prophet, even favorable, for fear it could lead to idolatry.

Vilks submitted the drawing to an exhibit at a Swedish cultural heritage center, which turned it down, citing security concerns. The issue went largely unnoticed until a Swedish newspaper printed the drawing with an editorial defending the freedom of expression.

The publication led to protests from Muslim countries, and briefly revived a heated debate in the West and the Muslim world about religious sensitivities and the limits of free speech.

It also led to numerous death threats against Vilks, who was temporarily moved to a secret location after al-Qaida in Iraq put a $100,000 bounty on his head in September 2007.

The 63-year-old artist told AP he has now built his own defense system, including a "homemade" safe room and a barbed-wire sculpture that could electrocute potential intruders. He also has an ax "to chop down" anyone trying to climb through the windows of his home, in southern Sweden.

"If something happens, I know exactly what to do," Vilks said.

He said he believes the suspects in the latest alleged plot to kill him � seven people arrested in Ireland and a Pennsylvania woman held in the U.S. � were not professionals but "rather low-tech."

He said he had learned from American media reports that Colleen R. LaRose, who called herself JihadJane in a YouTube video, had visited the area where he lives, but he didn't know whether that was correct. "I'm glad she didn't kill me," Vilks said, with a half-smile.

Nalin Pekgul, a moderate Muslim and high-ranking member of Sweden's opposition Social Democratic Party, told Swedish Radio the threats against Vilks were unacceptable but added his drawing had profoundly hurt Muslims.

"A dog is unclean. To describe Muhammad as a dog is like saying you are unclean" to Muslims, said Pekgul, a Kurdish immigrant from Turkey.

An eccentric man with disheveled gray hair and thick-lensed glasses, Vilks referred to himself as "the artist" and described his life as a movie plot.

"It's a good story. It's about the bad guys and a good guy, and they try to kill him," he said.

LaRose had discussions of her alleged plans with at least one of the suspects apprehended in Ireland, according to a U.S. official who spoke on condition of anonymity because the official wasn't authorized to discuss details of the investigation.

Irish authorities said Wednesday those arrested there were two Algerians, two Libyans, a Palestinian, a Croatian and an American woman married to one of the Algerian suspects. They were not identified by name.

Swedish police have kept a close eye on threats against Vilks, but he doesn't have round-the-clock protection.

Vilks has said he was threatened shortly after an ax-wielding man on Jan. 1 broke into the home of Danish cartoonist Kurt Westergaard, who drew one of the 12 Muhammad caricatures that prompted the 2006 uproar. Westergaard locked himself in a safe room, while police shot and wounded the attacker.

At least three Swedish newspapers reprinted Vilks' drawing Wednesday, citing its news value and the defense of free speech.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This kind of thing needs to keep happening. Generally speaking, one can currently usually charicature or mock other religious figures without fearing for their life. The same situation needs to be reached with Muhammed. Evidently, it's going to take a lot of repetition to reach that stage. Talking about cultural tolerance is all well and good, but it's a two way street. I'm happy to tolerate Muslims believing in frankly stupid things, so long as Muslims tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred. If they can't tolerate us, then we certainly shouldn't be tolerant of them.

Seriously, the Muslim world's response to occasional cartoons depicting Muhammed is so ridiculous that it's almost like a real-life episode of South Park.
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cwflaneur



Joined: 04 Aug 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
This kind of thing needs to keep happening. Generally speaking, one can currently usually charicature or mock other religious figures without fearing for their life. The same situation needs to be reached with Muhammed. Evidently, it's going to take a lot of repetition to reach that stage. Talking about cultural tolerance is all well and good, but it's a two way street. I'm happy to tolerate Muslims believing in frankly stupid things, so long as Muslims tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred. If they can't tolerate us, then we certainly shouldn't be tolerant of them.

Seriously, the Muslim world's response to occasional cartoons depicting Muhammed is so ridiculous that it's almost like a real-life episode of South Park.


+10

It definitely needs to continue happening. Ultimately, it's not about us vs. them. The stakes have high civilisational consequences for both Islam and the West: Radical Islam needs to be shown to be unable to wield a heavy hand in matters which are closest to its heart. It needs to gradually (or quickly, if possible) lose credibility within the captive societies amongst which it wields power.

Unfortunately, the day at which this kind of freedom of expression is possible within not only the West but also within non-radicalised, mainstream Islamic societies (I mean non-radical in a relative sense, as death for blasphemy is a perfectly mainstream punishment in orthodox Islam) is a long way off.
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buildbyflying



Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: To your right. No, your other right.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Talking about cultural tolerance is all well and good, but it's a two way street. I'm happy to tolerate Muslims believing in frankly stupid things, so long as Muslims tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred.


I think the catch here is subjectivity. I can say killing for religion goes too far, but another can say that holding signs that say "Jesus hates (whomever)" goes too far.

I understand the argument: it's about respecting culture, to the extent that the culture is of value. Extremism is not of value. I don't take offense to the drawing, not because it is offensive (non-violent Muslims would be offended), but because the extreme factions have such a power in the religion that it's necessary to voice an opinion against them. Just as I'm inclined to say "God is a giant piece of s**t" or "99% of republican males are homosexuals" because they're supposed to "tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred".

I wouldn't want to offend someone because I'm lashing out at another. That's generalizing. Such as calling all Europeans "eurotrash" or all Americans "fat-fu*k warmonkeys". I guess I'm saying I wouldn't do it personally, but I understand the reason for it.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

buildbyflying wrote:
Fox wrote:
Talking about cultural tolerance is all well and good, but it's a two way street. I'm happy to tolerate Muslims believing in frankly stupid things, so long as Muslims tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred.


I think the catch here is subjectivity. I can say killing for religion goes too far, but another can say that holding signs that say "Jesus hates (whomever)" goes too far.


The difference is that no one is physically harmed by the Jesus sign, while someone is harmed by the killing. I don't think that's a subjective distinction at all. Muslims and Christians can hate gay people (for example) all they like as far as I'm concerned, so long as they don't harm them.

If you can look away and ignore something, you can tolerate it. As such, any expression of an idea is tolerable. Things that you cannot ignore, though -- like killing people, harming people, altering the law to reflect religious values, and so forth -- are intolerable. I see this as a concrete, objective standard of what does or doesn't go too far.

buildbyflying wrote:
Just as I'm inclined to say "God is a giant piece of s**t" or "99% of republican males are homosexuals" because they're supposed to "tolerate our culture's freedom of expression and tendency to mock that which others find sacred".


These things are all fine by me. If people don't like the ideas you're expressing, they can ignore them. As such, such statements are tolerable.
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The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OTOH, while you're perhaps righteously provoking a violent minority, you're also offending a peaceful majority. Its worse when that majority then gets humiliated again by the extremism of the minority.

There's a difference between acknowledging one's right to say something and then affirming the wisdom of saying what is said. I want my kid (I don't have any) to be able to wear anything he wants to school, but I'll be damned if I let him wear something that is deliberately offensive.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Happy Warrior wrote:
OTOH, while you're perhaps righteously provoking a violent minority, you're also offending a peaceful majority. Its worse when that majority then gets humiliated again by the extremism of the minority.

There's a difference between acknowledging one's right to say something and then affirming the wisdom of saying what is said. I want my kid (I don't have any) to be able to wear anything he wants to school, but I'll be damned if I let him wear something that is deliberately offensive.


No one has a right to avoid being offended, especially when they themselves make no effort to avoid offending others. Their culture includes many things which are offensive to Westerners, but we tolerate those things because we're overall a very tolerant collection of social groups. If they can't afford us the same, then they're just hypocrites. The idea that we should avoid offending these people while they engage in behavior which is offensive to us is just silly, especially since what's offending them is things like cartoons, while their offensive behavior involves things like female genital mutilation, stoning women to death, and so forth.

I'm offended by Islam. I'm offended by how Muslims treat women. I'm offended by how Muslims treat gays. I'm offended by how Muslims treat their children. I'm offended by how Muslims treat Israel. I'm offended by how Muslim nations are among the world's greatest offenders with regards to human rights. All of this is far more considerable than a cartoon. When they grow the Hell up and start treating other human beings in an acceptable fashion, then we can start worrying about their sensibilities.
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The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
The Happy Warrior wrote:
OTOH, while you're perhaps righteously provoking a violent minority, you're also offending a peaceful majority. Its worse when that majority then gets humiliated again by the extremism of the minority.

There's a difference between acknowledging one's right to say something and then affirming the wisdom of saying what is said. I want my kid (I don't have any) to be able to wear anything he wants to school, but I'll be damned if I let him wear something that is deliberately offensive.


The idea that we should avoid offending these people while they engage in behavior which is offensive to us is just silly, especially since what's offending them is things like cartoons, while their offensive behavior involves things like female genital mutilation, stoning women to death, and so forth.


Firstly, that's not my idea. Secondly, I don't characterize them as 'these people.' I have set up the majority-minority divide, at the very least.

Try again.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Happy Warrior wrote:
Fox wrote:
The Happy Warrior wrote:
OTOH, while you're perhaps righteously provoking a violent minority, you're also offending a peaceful majority. Its worse when that majority then gets humiliated again by the extremism of the minority.

There's a difference between acknowledging one's right to say something and then affirming the wisdom of saying what is said. I want my kid (I don't have any) to be able to wear anything he wants to school, but I'll be damned if I let him wear something that is deliberately offensive.


The idea that we should avoid offending these people while they engage in behavior which is offensive to us is just silly, especially since what's offending them is things like cartoons, while their offensive behavior involves things like female genital mutilation, stoning women to death, and so forth.


Firstly, that's not my idea. Secondly, I don't characterize them as 'these people.' I have set up the majority-minority divide, at the very least.

Try again.


The closest you come to even interacting with -- much less rebutting -- anything I said with this snippet of text is pointing out a majority/minority divide you proposed previously in the thread, but given that even the "majority" population of Muslims actively support behavior I and many others find offensive (and I gave some examples in the post, some of which are even in the fragment of text you included in your quote), that idea is in no way a counter-argument to what I've said.

How about you try again, kiddo? I'm very interested to hear you develop this case that we should avoid offending Muslims while they make no effort to avoid offending us (especially given the content of their offenses is infinitely more severe than the content of ours).
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nautilus



Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cwflaneur wrote:
It needs to gradually (or quickly, if possible) lose credibility within the captive societies amongst which it wields power.


Unfortunately islam is promulgated and maintained by brutality and force.
There is no free choice to belief or not, as in other religions. It is submission or death for the most part.
Thus once it has swallowed a country, that land never can re-emerge from its clutches.
many countries have been islamised, none have have done the reverse.
Its not really about credibility, its about fear and power. They could be believing in the tooth fairy, it wouldn't make a difference to its "credibility" because the compulsion would still be there.
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The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:


How about you try again, kiddo? I'm very interested to hear you develop this case that we should avoid offending Muslims while they make no effort to avoid offending us (especially given the content of their offenses is infinitely more severe than the content of ours).


That's not my point, so why would I develop it?
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djsmnc



Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottom line: props to Lars Vilks!
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tiger fancini



Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nautilus wrote:

Thus once it has swallowed a country, that land never can re-emerge from its clutches.
many countries have been islamised, none have have done the reverse.


Spain?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Spain
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Happy Warrior wrote:
Fox wrote:


How about you try again, kiddo? I'm very interested to hear you develop this case that we should avoid offending Muslims while they make no effort to avoid offending us (especially given the content of their offenses is infinitely more severe than the content of ours).


That's not my point, so why would I develop it?


Then perhaps you should clarify exactly how your hypothetical decision to not dress your child offensively in any way interacts with whether or not it's acceptable for a man to draw a picture critical of and offensive to Islam? If you're not saying we should avoid offending Muslims -- who, even when they are in the "peaceful majority," very frequently and unabashedly engage in behavior offensive to many Westerners -- then what are you saying?
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Reggie



Joined: 21 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They need to sentence Jihad Jane and the guy who threatened Elton John to life in prison, assign them as cellmates, and pump ABBA and Elton John music into their cell 24/7/365. Very Happy
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