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Israel Sandbags Biden
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:12 pm    Post subject: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

In the midst of Biden's visit, 1600 new settlements in the occupied West Bank were announced!

Israel Sandbags Biden

By Juan Cole, Reader Supported News
10 March 2010


The far rightwing government of Binyamin Netanyahu in Israel majorly sandbagged Vice President Joe Biden on Tuesday, demonstrating once again that it has not the slightest interest in pursuing a just peace with the Palestinian people or in trading a cessation of its colonization of the Palestinian West Bank for a comprehensive peace with the Arab world.

Biden went to the Mideast to kick off negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis, and reassured the latter of undying US support for them. On Chris Matthews' Hardball, Biden explained that when you marry someone, you tell them you love them, but that does not remove the obligation to keep saying it years later. Apparently, however, Washington is henpecked by Tel Aviv to the point almost of being a battered spouse. In response to Biden's loyal support for Israel over decades, the Likud-led government kicked him in the teeth. Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai abruptly announced that he would build 1600 new households (for 8,000 people?) in a part of the Occupied West Bank that the Israeli government had annexed to Jerusalem District. It was precisely such new and increasing Israeli building on Palestinian territory that had led Palestine Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to reject negotiations and to threaten to resign. The announcement put in doubt whether the negotiations would go forward, and made Biden and the United States government look like fools.

Joe Biden should have turned around and left the country. Instead, he showed up 90 minutes late to a state dinner hosted by Netanyahu and dared actually directly complain about the way he was treated, "I condemn the decision," he said, calling it "precisely the kind of step that undermines the trust we need right now and runs counter to the constructive discussions that I've had here in Israel."

full article, video, and graphic at link
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
... demonstrating once again that it has not the slightest interest in pursuing a just peace with the Palestinian people or in trading a cessation of its colonization of the Palestinian West Bank for a comprehensive peace with the Arab world.


Why do people even pretend that this is seriously within Israel's grasp? If Israel pulled entirely out of the West Bank, stopped all settlement activity, and interfered in no way with the Arab World, we'd see an immediate increase in terrorist attacks and rocket launching from Palestine into Israel, and the Arab world would still hate and denounce Israel.

No one is offering Israel this trade, so why should Israel even bother? Why should they pull out of the West Bank only to have rockets launched randomly into their territory? Israel negotiating with the Arabs is like Democrats negotiating with Republicans: they're not going to sign on no matter what, so why even waste your time?

When the Arab world gives Israel an incentive to change it's behavior, it will.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I've seen, a significant portion of the Israeli press is unhappy with the public slapping of Biden. Behind closed doors Biden expressed an important point:

"The Israeli press has been extremely critical of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's government's behavior during Biden's visit. See these excerpts from a piece by Shimon Shiffer in Israel's Yedioth Ahronoth today, headline: "Biden: You�re Jeopardizing Regional Peace":

"Vice President Joe Biden arrived in Israel as a friend. As a matter of fact, he is considered to be the greatest friend of Israel ever to have been a member of the U.S. Senate. Legislation that he promoted over the years ensured the Israelis� security and welfare. It is that great friend of ours who now feels betrayed.

"While standing in front of the cameras, the U.S. vice president made an effort to smile at Binyamin Netanyahu even after having learned on Tuesday that the Interior Ministry had approved plans to build 1,600 housing units in the East Jerusalem neighborhood of Ramat Shlomo. But in closed conversations, Joe Biden took an entirely different tone. ...

"People who heard what Biden said were stunned. �This is starting to get dangerous for us,� Biden castigated his interlocutors. �What you�re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.�

http://www.politico.com/blogs/laurarozen/0310/What_Biden_told_Netanyahu_behind_closed_doors_This_is_starting_to_get_dangerous_for_us.html

From Haaretz

"The real problem, however, is not the timing of the announcement or the act of insulting a crucial ally - which are in themselves quite serious issues. Rather, it is the government's policy, which from the outset spawned this damaging project. Under the cover of nicely worded statements touting two states for two peoples and the hoopla over the renewal of indirect negotiations with the Palestinians, Netanyahu and his government continue to establish facts on the ground - and in such a way as to conquer yet another hill and another path, while populating East Jerusalem with more and more Jews."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1155648.html

I can't tell for sure if this insult was intended or not, but it looks deliberate. It's inevitable that we swallow an insult from someone like Chavez or the Iranians and continue on. It's an entirely different matter when it is an ally. Andrew Sullivan says we should 'cut off loan guarantees, suspend aid, threaten to remove the UN veto'. I agree Obama and Sec. Clinton should take a good hard look at one or two of those measures. There should be consequences.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That little country treated the Obama admin like a bitch. Barry should man up and push back. No point in being a superpower if not.


The settlements are gross. I would be inclined to support Israel if not for the settlements. When I read about the settlements I discover that they're largely driven by ultra religious quacks who are building trip-wires in the desert. Oh well. Just more religious BS.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

Fox wrote:

Why do people even pretend that this is seriously within Israel's grasp? If Israel pulled entirely out of the West Bank, stopped all settlement activity, and interfered in no way with the Arab World, we'd see an immediate increase in terrorist attacks and rocket launching from Palestine into Israel, and the Arab world would still hate and denounce Israel.

No one is offering Israel this trade, so why should Israel even bother?


You don't know that. You assume that. You also assume that the rockets are the aggression and Israel's response the retaliation. I don't think it is that clear.

A comprehensive Middle East peace settlement dealing with Iran, Israel, the US, Iraq, Saudi, Jordan and Lebanon would be difficult but not impossible.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

mises wrote:
You don't know that. You assume that.


Insofar as I'm talking about a alternative possible situation, yes, I assume that. Based on history and the character of the nations surrounding Israel, it's a very safe assumption.

mises wrote:
You also assume that the rockets are the aggression and Israel's response the retaliation. I don't think it is that clear.


You don't think it's clear based upon what?

mises wrote:
A comprehensive Middle East peace settlement dealing with Iran, Israel, the US, Iraq, Saudi, Jordan and Lebanon would be difficult but not impossible.


What incentive do the majority Arab nations you listed have to support Israel? Their governments gain political leverage as a result of their opposition to Israel; peace with Israel would destroy that without any real reciprocal gain. Any bribe to get them to accept Israel would as such have to be of inestimable value, and frankly we don't have anything to offer them that could be so valuable, nor should we piss it away on them if we did.

We're talking about nations that have kept Palestinian refugees segregated from society and prevented any possible integration specifically to use them in political posturing against Israel (excepting Jordan, who initially granted them citizenship, but is now moving in the opposite direction and revoking it). These nations aren't harmed by Israel in any way; their opposition to Israel is pure politics. Governments like these do best when they have something to be against, and being against Israel is quite effective.

For what it's worth, though, I also think the settlement activity is fairly unreasonable and that this incident would provide good justification for the United States to begin toning down support for Israel. I may find Israel more palletable than its Arab neighbors, but the United States needs to look out for its own interests first and foremost, and Israel is making the United States look a fool in this case. None the less, even if Israel caves to United States demands, it won't bring peace any closer.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

Quote:
Insofar as I'm talking about a alternative possible situation, yes, I assume that. Based on history and the character of the nations surrounding Israel, it's a very safe assumption.


Then it is a war every couple of years forever. I'm sure Israel will survive a century of war.

Quote:
You don't think it's clear based upon what?


It is a circle of violence. That's how they work. Each side is responding to some action of the other.

Quote:
What incentive do the majority Arab nations you listed have to support Israel?


A peace settlement would have in it incentives. That's how it works. You create incentives to gain an outcome.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

mises wrote:
Quote:
Insofar as I'm talking about a alternative possible situation, yes, I assume that. Based on history and the character of the nations surrounding Israel, it's a very safe assumption.


Then it is a war every couple of years forever. I'm sure Israel will survive a century of war.


I think this is a plausible scenario unless something incredibly game-changing occurs which allows the Arabic world to become substantially more economically developed (and thus trend away from extremism).

mises wrote:
Quote:
You don't think it's clear based upon what?


It is a circle of violence. That's how they work. Each side is responding to some action of the other.


I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to say that many Arabs consider Israel merely existing a provocation (particularly if they can benefit politically from it), which is what drove my original statement.

mises wrote:
Quote:
What incentive do the majority Arab nations you listed have to support Israel?


A peace settlement would have in it incentives. That's how it works. You create incentives to gain an outcome.


For example?
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think it would be entirely unreasonable to say that many Arabs consider Israel merely existing a provocation.


Well, muslim Arabs do. And most of them are muslim. Anyways, that doesn't mean their governments can't be coerced into a peaceful arrangement (as has been done with Egypt and Jordan).

Quote:
For example?


Dunno.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=556639&publicationSubCategoryId=200


Maybe the reporter in the article mentioned in the OP should have checked his facts.

According to THIS article Netanyahu had no idea of what was going on. (see last paragraph). This seems to have be an unilateral decision by the Interior Ministry. Given that they are apparently run by a far right religious group and given that such groups see any territorial concessions as blasphemy it's hardly strange that they would choose Biden's visit to make a political point.

Whereas Netanyahu is likely more politically astute.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
http://www.philstar.com/Article.aspx?articleId=556639&publicationSubCategoryId=200


Maybe the reporter in the article mentioned in the OP should have checked his facts.

According to THIS article Netanyahu had no idea of what was going on. (see last paragraph). This seems to have be an unilateral decision by the Interior Ministry. Given that they are apparently run by a far right religious group and given that such groups see any territorial concessions as blasphemy it's hardly strange that they would choose Biden's visit to make a political point.

Whereas Netanyahu is likely more politically astute.

Nice attempt at spin. The article does NOT say that is how it was, but rather how it "may have been." Either way, it does not matter. Netanyahu knew or should have known. The buck stops there.

Furthermore, your article also states
Quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has rebuffed calls from the White House to halt all settlement activity


Netanyahu is hardly the innocent bystander you make him out to be here.
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bucheon bum



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

Fox wrote:

No one is offering Israel this trade, so why should Israel even bother? Why should they pull out of the West Bank only to have rockets launched randomly into their territory? Israel negotiating with the Arabs is like Democrats negotiating with Republicans: they're not going to sign on no matter what, so why even waste your time?


What about King Abdullah's plan??

Anyway, both sides are full of opportunistic a-holes. Netanyahu is an Israeli version of Bush. Well, a more articulate Israeli version of him. Still a yahoo though.
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Reggie



Joined: 21 Sep 2009

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, many Americans are in denial of being Israel's bitch while the rest of the world laughs at us for being the "catcher" in the relationship. Rolling Eyes
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

bucheon bum wrote:
Fox wrote:

No one is offering Israel this trade, so why should Israel even bother? Why should they pull out of the West Bank only to have rockets launched randomly into their territory? Israel negotiating with the Arabs is like Democrats negotiating with Republicans: they're not going to sign on no matter what, so why even waste your time?


What about King Abdullah's plan??


I don't think the Arab world on whole would accept it. I also see how it leaves holes for Arabs to agree to it while continuing to politically persecute Israel. For example:

Quote:
Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian Refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with UN General Assembly Resolution 194.


This is incredibly vague; no matter what Israel does, if any other given Arab nation decides their solution was "insufficiently just," then regardless of any military withdrawls Israel has engaged in, they have justification to continue political persecution by claiming Israel didn't live up to its side of the bargain. In fact, that's exactly what I think would happen.

This resolution is Israel giving up a huge amount, in return for a vague promise of peace. Israel would frankly be utterly foolish to accept such an agreement; it gains nothing, and loses a lot. And that doesn't even get into the plight of the poor Palestinians who will end up living in what will almost assuredly be a hell hole; there's a reason that when surveyed, many Palestinians living in Israel said they wouldn't want to live in a Palestinian state, even if their land was transferred into the jurisidiction of the new state along with them (meaning they wouldn't have to move).

A one state solution is the best solution. A single Israeli state made up of Jews and Arabs living side-by-side can be a success given time; tolerance and equality is possible. Two states will result in a state of haves and a state of have-nots right next to one another. That's a recipie for disaster. This would require the more religiously extreme elements of Israel being pushed out of power, but that's something that needs to happen no matter what for Israel's long-term prosperity.

bucheon bum wrote:
Anyway, both sides are full of opportunistic a-holes. Netanyahu is an Israeli version of Bush. Well, a more articulate Israeli version of him. Still a yahoo though.


I agree.
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fiveeagles



Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Israel Sandbags Biden Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
bacasper wrote:
... demonstrating once again that it has not the slightest interest in pursuing a just peace with the Palestinian people or in trading a cessation of its colonization of the Palestinian West Bank for a comprehensive peace with the Arab world.


Why do people even pretend that this is seriously within Israel's grasp? If Israel pulled entirely out of the West Bank, stopped all settlement activity, and interfered in no way with the Arab World, we'd see an immediate increase in terrorist attacks and rocket launching from Palestine into Israel, and the Arab world would still hate and denounce Israel.

No one is offering Israel this trade, so why should Israel even bother? Why should they pull out of the West Bank only to have rockets launched randomly into their territory? Israel negotiating with the Arabs is like Democrats negotiating with Republicans: they're not going to sign on no matter what, so why even waste your time?

When the Arab world gives Israel an incentive to change it's behavior, it will.


Exactly.
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