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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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languistic
Joined: 25 Nov 2009
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 Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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Last edited by languistic on Tue Jan 18, 2011 2:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Goon-Yang
Joined: 28 May 2009
Location: Duh
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:48 am Post subject: |
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So you want to sue them because you made a mistake. I went in a while ago and I didn't change my address. Guess what...they could have fined me and I only moved from one building to another (in the same complex). Instead of being a douchebag I said I was sorry and I'd change it right away. She could have been a bitch, but she was nice and let me renew my F-2.
It's your screw up...deal with it OP. |
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IlIlNine
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Location: Gunpo, Gyonggi, SoKo
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| bassexpander wrote: |
| justin moffatt wrote: |
2. We then moved into an Office-Tel. The owner and Real Estate agent indicated we could not use the Office-tel address as our permanent addresss.
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First of all, I'm very sorry about your situation. That sucks. I can relate too, because I likely won't easily get an F5 (if I choose to apply for it) due to a screwy thing a school did with my visa paperwork when I was a newbee.
Second, what you did is highly ILLEGAL and something the gov't frowns upon. I can sympathize with you for not knowing, but I can't fault immigration for what they did to you here. In fact, I agree with TJ -- you're lucky you didn't end up getting burned more. This is NOT a fight you want to pick.
You probably thought you were getting a good deal on renting that offictell, or just didn't know it, but what was really happening was they offered a slightly better price to you so you could help them defraud the government out of tax. Their tax costs would have been something in the neighborhood of 17 million won if they had let you list the address. So what you did here was take part in defrauding the gov't of about 17 million won. As you can see, this is not a good basis from which to begin a costly lawsuit against the Korean immigration department. This is highly illegal, and it happens a lot (people get caught for it, too).
A word of warning: Realtors will allow for this crap to happen in order to make a sale/rental and get their fees. DO NOT FALL FOR IT! It states very clearly in the immigration rules that you need to have a permanent residence/address. It's easy to overlook this when you apply for your F2, because waygooks like us aren't expecting this type of address fraud to take place.
For this reason, when realtors in Jeonja approached us with this plan, we politely told them to shove it up their keester. Jeonja was full of offictells for rent -- but only to those who agreed to list the address elsewhere and help the owner cheat on taxes. Out of 8 places, only two would rent to us legally.
Welcome to Korea.
The gov't is trying to crack down on people who illegally own additional houses and cheat on taxes in hopes of buying/selling/renting them for a profit. What you did was put your own ass on the line for the person who owned it.
That is illegal, and you got burned for it.
I'm sorry, but next time someone asks you to take part in something illegal, or sounds like it could be fishy, check it out. Didn't you think it was a little odd when they asked you not to list your address there? If they say, "Oh, everyone does it -- no problem" tell them to go to hell because it may turn around and bite you in the ass as it did here.
Justin, I can totally understand how you are upset and feel blind-sided by this. If you would like to do a podcast with me sometime with the goal of helping others avoid this sort of problem, I'd love to have you. There is no instruction manual for foreigners to help us avoid these problems. |
This is something that everyone who rents an officetel in their own name MUST know.
As mentioned, sometimes the rental contracts will state that the place must not be registered as an official place of residence. This is done for a variety of reasons (zoning - but most likely what bassxpander wrote about). The point is, finding a place that allows you to register it as an official place of residence is quite important... and it becomes critical if you have a car registered, for instance. It may narrow down the selection, but if you keep looking, you'll find a place.
All you have to do is ask the realtor: 전입신고 가능해요? ... or better yet, ask them to only give you listings for those places that you can register officially. |
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rooster_2006
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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Little arbitrary pieces of visa BS like this are the reason I left Korea. The country throws up every single roadblock it can to qualified foreigners living there, and then gives out free PR visas with no wait period to any and all racially Korean foreigners -- no educational, health, acculturation, etc. requirements whatsoever.
In Korea, a high school dropout Korean-American with no Korean ability whatsoever gets instant permanent residency (F-4), but a 20-year veteran of the country with a PhD, killer Korean skills, and a professional jobs gets an E-7 or an E-1.
I became so sick of this dichotomy, I moved to Taiwan. In Taiwan, an average English teacher can apply for PR in five years. There are no ridiculous "heritage" (e.g. "pure blood") visas for ABCs. Many hold dual citizenship, but that's a different thing, and foreigners are eligible for PR in a REASONABLE frame of time.
Guys, in Taiwan, it's five years (not to mention the ability to have work permits for up to three jobs, the ability to switch jobs in-country, etc. -- things of which the E-2 teachers in Korea can only dream). In Japan, PR is ten years (though it is being changed to five years for skilled professionals). In China, it's seven years for HK and Shanghai.
WHY ON EARTH DO FOREIGNERS STICK AROUND IN A COUNTRY WITH NO PR SYSTEM FOR TRUE FOREIGNERS?
I did my five years in Korea. And when I realized how much greener the grass was on the other side of the fence, I left. |
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harryh
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: south of Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:11 am Post subject: |
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I haven't read the complete thread, but I could apply for an F-5 now, but never bothered. Am I strange, I don't know. It hasn't really bothered me. I've just been going to get my F-2 every couple of years. 5 minute taxi ride every two years for me.
I've learnt to keep ties to my home country ie: visa card / alternative bank account.
Maybe in previous years I just got so frustrated with being married to a korean and not having too many rights, and kind of gave up battling the system.
Most of my income comes from the UK (investments). |
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Dixon
Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Ut videam wrote: |
The address you provide to Immi has absolutely nothing to do with your family's legal permanent residence under the Korean family registry laws. They require the physical address where you reside, period. Not where you work, not where you pick up your mail. If you don't provide your physical address, and properly update it with Immi when said address changes, you've committed an infraction that will remain on your file for a certain period of time and will, as you've seen, have consequences.
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What if you're nomadic? A friend of mine lived in an RV for what he said were the most awesome two years of his life. |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:06 am Post subject: Re: HELP! F5 Visa denied for 3 years! |
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| T-J wrote: |
Actually an accurate statement, the regs have been relaxed.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
we did not notify Immigration that her brother moved, I a) have to pay a fine b) cannot receive a F5 for 3 years as penalty. In fact, they were only willing to renew my F2 Visa for 1 year (instead of the standard 2 year).
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Yep, you couldn't follow the rules and you got fined. Lucky they renewed your visa at all.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
Suffice to say, I lost it.
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You have issues.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
I told my wife to ask for his supervisor. He refused. I told her to tell him that I would request my legal counsel to proceed on my behalf. He didn't care.
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Nor would I.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
If anyone can suggest a good Immigration Lawyer, I would appreciate it. I have already contacted my company's Law Firm for counsel. The only concern I have is that if I get an Immigration Lawyer to approach Immigration on my behalf, that Immigration will make it more difficult in the future. What a monkey house.
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Your concerns are well founded. Don't pick this fight, you will gain nothing and could lose much.
Korean immigration for all its faults and inconsistency, which can be very frustrating at times, is still a relative cake walk compared to the bureaucracy found in the States.
Play by the rules, and an F-5 is easy to get. Even by screwing up like you did, what is the down side? You have to renew your F-2 two more times and you still can get your F-5, pretty forgiving if you ask me. Suck it up and learn from your mistake. |
I.N.S. has a sort of poor rep. But, are they really worse than the numerous individuls in the immi offices around the ROK who refuse to follow even one iota of Imm. Law? I get the impression that you're originally from here, and thus have a lot or at least some insight about this issue. |
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dirving
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| harryh wrote: |
I haven't read the complete thread, but I could apply for an F-5 now, but never bothered. Am I strange, I don't know. It hasn't really bothered me. I've just been going to get my F-2 every couple of years. 5 minute taxi ride every two years for me.
I've learnt to keep ties to my home country ie: visa card / alternative bank account.
Maybe in previous years I just got so frustrated with being married to a korean and not having too many rights, and kind of gave up battling the system.
Most of my income comes from the UK (investments). |
Are you that dude from the Midlands whose fam has been on the Telly with the, I'm sorry, stereotypical and seemingly countless struggles/issues with the Mother-in-Law?
Take good care.
DI |
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wuzza
Joined: 02 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: |
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Just out of interest, (apologies to the OP) what happens if you live in one of these places which you can't register as your official residence, but then you go and do it anyway?
Do you lose your Cheonsae? Is there a fine? Do the government reward you for ratting out a crim?
Seems like it would be a pretty easy scam to shut down if a couple of tax officers went undercover as potential tenants, or am I missing something? |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: HELP! F5 Visa denied for 3 years! |
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| dirving wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
Actually an accurate statement, the regs have been relaxed.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
we did not notify Immigration that her brother moved, I a) have to pay a fine b) cannot receive a F5 for 3 years as penalty. In fact, they were only willing to renew my F2 Visa for 1 year (instead of the standard 2 year).
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Yep, you couldn't follow the rules and you got fined. Lucky they renewed your visa at all.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
Suffice to say, I lost it.
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You have issues.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
I told my wife to ask for his supervisor. He refused. I told her to tell him that I would request my legal counsel to proceed on my behalf. He didn't care.
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Nor would I.
| justin moffatt wrote: |
If anyone can suggest a good Immigration Lawyer, I would appreciate it. I have already contacted my company's Law Firm for counsel. The only concern I have is that if I get an Immigration Lawyer to approach Immigration on my behalf, that Immigration will make it more difficult in the future. What a monkey house.
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Your concerns are well founded. Don't pick this fight, you will gain nothing and could lose much.
Korean immigration for all its faults and inconsistency, which can be very frustrating at times, is still a relative cake walk compared to the bureaucracy found in the States.
Play by the rules, and an F-5 is easy to get. Even by screwing up like you did, what is the down side? You have to renew your F-2 two more times and you still can get your F-5, pretty forgiving if you ask me. Suck it up and learn from your mistake. |
I.N.S. has a sort of poor rep. But, are they really worse than the numerous individuls in the immi offices around the ROK who refuse to follow even one iota of Imm. Law? I get the impression that you're originally from here, and thus have a lot or at least some insight about this issue. |
In a word, yes. The only complaint that is consistent with Immi in Korea is the inconsistency that you find. This is much more apparent in Korea because you are sitting across the table from the officer that is making the decision. In the U.S. you are just as dependent on the interpretation of individuals, however you don't see the person(s) making the decision. You mail in your application with documentation and wait, months.
It took eight months to get my wife into the States back in '98. She was turned down on her first interview at the embassy here in Seoul for not having one "t" or another crossed properly, even though we had already been married for three years at the time.
My original point was that having done both, I would take the bureaucracy of Korea's Immigration Office any day and twice on Sunday.
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I get the impression that you're originally from here
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This part just makes me laugh. |
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jiberish
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
Location: The Carribean Bay Wrestler
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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I remember when I got my F2 the guy was trying to problems with my registration. But alas we were too well prepared. We had every possible thing + more they could ask for ready and in good check.
The person next to me when I was having mine done wasn't so lucky. I overheard they used their cash for key money on an apartment so they didn't enough in liquid assets and were denied. |
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justin moffatt
Joined: 29 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting to see this thread still alive. . .
I honestly don't really care anymore what people say on this site. Regardless on how prepared you are, there is no guarantee of anything at Immigration. Went to renew my F2 last month (for the 4th time) and initially was denied a 2 year F2 Visa. Stood my ground, and politely pushed my wife to request the immigration officer to give me 2 years. Got responses like "you don't own your own home", "you don't have a baby yet", blah blah blah. Kept pushing with a smile, my wife was stressed, but the immigration officer in a huff, finally gave in (throwing my documents into the tray). In the end, GOT LUCKY, and finally got 2 year F2.
Walked over to the other side of Mokdong Immigration at the Expat center for international business people in Korea. Smiled at seeing all the foreign business expats with their lawyers.
Face the facts, Korea wants foreign money and investment, not the foreigners that supply it . . . |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was surprised to see this year old thread dug up as well. I'm glad you got your two year extension JM, and I hope that things are going well for you in every way.
Update, soon after my post last year, I too went down to immigration for my F-2 renewal and they gave me a three year renewal. Yes, the inconsistencies are frustrating, but the overall process is still much easier and by far more forgiving than in the States.
Now I'm eligible for the F-5, but I have two years remaining on my current F-2 and am looking at bypassing the F-5 and going straight for dual citizenship in light of the recent changes to immigration and tax laws.
Going down to immigration later this month, as time permits to explore both options. |
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kimchi_pizza
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Location: "Get back on the bus! Here it comes!"
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
Meh, still got a year to go.
Like I've said, it is a cake walk now a days. When we got married there was no F-2 visa for a foreign male. Now that sucked.
Now all you have to do is play the game.
Advice for those that are new to dealing with bureaucrats:
Go to immi early in the morning and early in the week. Get to them when they are fresh. Late in the week and late in the day, only increases your chances of getting someone with an ax to grind. They have a shitty job, they know it and the only recourse they have is the power they wield.
Dress respectably, but not too nice. You want to give a good impression, you don't want to give an air of superiority.
Bring the wife and kid(s). Be a family.
Speak Korean and treat your wife and the immigration official with respect. If ever there is a time to suck up, it is when dealing with bureaucrats.
Don't be the ugly foreigner.
I do wish the OP the best. I really think he got off light and should chalk it up to a learning experience. Not going to get anywhere hiring a lawyer except deeper in the hole. |
This advice deserves a thread of it's own. Best advice given in months 'round here... |
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