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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Personally, I really enjoy the suburban lifestyle. I enjoy the seclusion, the peaceful commutes, and the relative lack of excitement. The only annoying aspect is the lack of a decent mass transit system. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
No, the answer is for voters to wake up. No government document or governmental limits will remain intact without voter vigilance, and if you have voter vigilance, you don't need them. The one and only answer to social problems is for people to take responsibility. That's the reality, and anyone unable to see that reality is in no position to be saying what society should or shouldn't be doing to improve itself. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
No, the answer is for voters to wake up. No government document or governmental limits will remain intact without voter vigilance, and if you have voter vigilance, you don't need them. The one and only answer to social problems is for people to take responsibility. That's the reality, and anyone unable to see that reality is in no position to be saying what society should or shouldn't be doing to improve itself. |
So, you have the answer and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. I'll keep that in mind. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
I agree. Limit the damage possible. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
No, the answer is for voters to wake up. No government document or governmental limits will remain intact without voter vigilance, and if you have voter vigilance, you don't need them. The one and only answer to social problems is for people to take responsibility. That's the reality, and anyone unable to see that reality is in no position to be saying what society should or shouldn't be doing to improve itself. |
So, you have the answer and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. I'll keep that in mind. |
No you won't. You'll keep pretending people can somehow be protected from their own lazy indifference and apathy with government documents.
For all Libertarians talk about personal responsibility, they certainly seem unable to accept that part of personal responsibility involves politicial vigilance. That's not ideology, that's reality. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
No, the answer is for voters to wake up. No government document or governmental limits will remain intact without voter vigilance, and if you have voter vigilance, you don't need them. The one and only answer to social problems is for people to take responsibility. That's the reality, and anyone unable to see that reality is in no position to be saying what society should or shouldn't be doing to improve itself. |
So, you have the answer and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. I'll keep that in mind. |
No you won't. You'll keep pretending people can somehow be protected from their own lazy indifference and apathy with government documents.
For all Libertarians talk about personal responsibility, they certainly seem unable to accept that part of personal responsibility involves politicial vigilance. That's not ideology, that's reality. |
Why not have both? Seems like a nice, gooey liberal middle ground to me. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
No, the answer is for voters to wake up. No government document or governmental limits will remain intact without voter vigilance, and if you have voter vigilance, you don't need them. The one and only answer to social problems is for people to take responsibility. That's the reality, and anyone unable to see that reality is in no position to be saying what society should or shouldn't be doing to improve itself. |
So, you have the answer and anyone who doesn't agree is wrong. I'll keep that in mind. |
No you won't. You'll keep pretending people can somehow be protected from their own lazy indifference and apathy with government documents.
For all Libertarians talk about personal responsibility, they certainly seem unable to accept that part of personal responsibility involves politicial vigilance. That's not ideology, that's reality. |
Why not have both? Seems like a nice, gooey liberal middle ground to me. |
We can have both, I don't care. But only one is an actual solution. The other is just a security blanket; as soon as voters relax their vigilance, politicians will just begin ignoring, changing, or "re-interpretting" the document in question. That's why I think it's ultimately meaningless. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RufusW wrote: |
| I don't see where the government interest is in creating suburbia unless it's wanted by the populace (post-WWII) or via corporate capture. |
Automakers, construction companies, and most importantly banks are all strong lobbying forces behind suburban sprawl. The lobbying forces against it are much weaker. Thus, a government interest is created. More specifically, an interest for politicians is created.
Yes, ultimately it originates from corporations. However, corporations by their very nature are going to constantly lobby for things that are in their interests. You can't stop corporate lobbying, so the government needs to resist it. The check that should be forcing the government to resist it is voters. But time and again, voters prove they just don't care. |
Answer: Limit government power with some kind of founding document which expressly states the reach, role and power of govt. It's never been done, though. So, it must be a bad idea. |
I agree. Limit the damage possible. |
Its been done! Commerce Clause. Then neutered by SCOTUS under Presidential pressure in the middle of the second great war. But, you know, voters didn't care, so just shut up. *rolls eyes*
Mises, I checked out that Florida development. That actually looks pretty serious and is on a much greater scale than Norton Commons. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Suburbs are ugly, boring, anti-social and a misallocation of resources. They're also a financial trap:
http://video.pbs.org/video/1622130283
And oil is at 89$ today. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:29 am Post subject: |
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My suburb is a tastefully designed and well-maintained boring anti-social resource misallocator.
Also doing yardwork generally sucks. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| I must insist that they're ugly. |
Many most certainly are, but it's pretty subjective. Depends on what you're looking for (or been programmed to seek out, as the case may be). |
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