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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| And I really don't know if the bill is good or bad, but I have to give Obama and Pelosi a little credit: they stuck to their guns and got it passed. I think it took political courage on his part, as well as a # of democratic congressmen, to do this. Hopefully he continues to have a spine and follow his convictions. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Useful tool from WaPo on calculating how the reform will impact you. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Being a Canadian this health care bill looks like some compromise to appease the republicans, help keep the private insurers in business, and help them get re-elected. Why waste all this effort when it seems like Universal Health Care is no closer to being a reality. Isn't Universal Health Care what the Democrats and Obama really wanted?
Why this weird system where you still have to go through private insurance? Shouldn't a public insurer be the default, and private insurance be optional?
I'm confused... |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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It's starting to feel like 1965 again. The government is actually being used to address important problems. Next up is Wall Street reform. DADT can't be far behind. Then there is immigration reform--there was a big rally on the Mall yesterday and Obama promised to try for it in the campaign--hope that one ripens just before Election Day.
At least there is a feeling of movement now and that creates more momentum. Yeeha!
I haven't noticed much complaint about the government take over (a real one!) of the student loan program from the twenty-somethings. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Why this weird system where you still have to go through private insurance? |
The answer is in your first sentence--"looks like some compromise to appease the republicans, help keep the private insurers in business"--because that is exactly what it is. Obama, though a liberal, has decided to govern as a centrist (at least so far) in an effort to reduce the heightened partisanship that has divided the country for so long. The Republican response has been to go even further to the right in an effort to stop him from succeeding. They fear his success would lead them to 30-40 years of irrelevance (and they have a point). |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
Being a Canadian this health care bill looks like some compromise to appease the republicans, help keep the private insurers in business, and help them get re-elected. Why waste all this effort when it seems like Universal Health Care is no closer to being a reality. Isn't Universal Health Care what the Democrats and Obama really wanted?
Why this weird system where you still have to go through private insurance? Shouldn't a public insurer be the default, and private insurance be optional?
I'm confused... |
1) I don't buy that the bill only got watered down because the Democrats were trying to appease the Republicans. This bill received no Republican votes whatsoever. For the most part, the mainstream Democrats wanted to pass a watered down bill and the futile quest to gain Republican support was a convenient excuse.
2) "Socialism" is a dirty word in America, probably as a lingering vestige of McCarthyism and the Cold War. Many Americans far less informed or eloquent than our Dave's libertarians are vehemently opposed to socialized services simply because they don't want other presumably less hardworking people benefiting from their labor. Despite the claims of agents placed in conservative rallies to make them look bad, I'm pretty sure the following video is legit and will serve to illustrate the mindset I just outlined:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ik4f1dRbP8
While I'm amenable to pragmatic arguments about our inability to afford such socialized services, I've always been and always will be completely opposed to the victim blaming "poor people just need to work harder" mentality that mainstream conservatives seem so fond of. Even if it is the case that adequate social programs are unsustainable, it doesn't help me relate to the cause of fiscal conservatism when its champions maliciously celebrate the plight of the poverty stricken as social Darwinism taking its course.
But yeah, basically Democrats on the whole are ethically compromised cowards while Republicans are mostly relentless sociopaths. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| while Republicans are mostly relentless sociopaths. |
Aren't you being overly generous in your assessment? 
I just read Mitt Romney's reaction to health care passage which demonstrates quite well the accuracy of the description 'relentless sociopaths'. Having been the Republican governor of the most liberal state and having signed into law a health care program very much like the one Congress just passed, Romney put out this statement:
"America has just witnessed an unconscionable abuse of power. President Obama has betrayed his oath to the nation" and so on for 3 paragraphs until he ends with this: "For these reasons and more, the act should be repealed. That campaign begins today."
I can't wait to see his campaign ads calling for the right of insurance companies to kick people off their insurance policy because they got sick, followed by a call to restore the donut hole so the elderly can pay more for their medicine. That should go over really well.
Edit (forgot the link to the quote):
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0310/Romney_Unconscionable_abuse_of_power.html?showall |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| 1) I don't buy that the bill only got watered down because the Democrats were trying to appease the Republicans. This bill received no Republican votes whatsoever. For the most part, the mainstream Democrats wanted to pass a watered down bill and the futile quest to gain Republican support was a convenient excuse. |
This is true, and an important point. From day one Republicans were clearly going to oppose this bill almost universally. Every actual compromise in this bill was a compromise forced by Democrats (well, and Joe Lieberman). While it's true many Democrats would have been willing to sign on for a better bill, enough of them weren't such that sacrifices had to be made to pass this.
Nothing in this bill can really be blamed upon Republicans; Democrats passed it on their own, and as such, they are entirely responsible for it. Given the content of the bill, that's not a good thing for them. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I can't wait to see his campaign ads calling for the right of insurance companies to kick people off their insurance policy because they got sick, followed by a call to restore the donut hole so the elderly can pay more for their medicine. That should go over really well. |
This won't be the Republican tactic. The Republicans will say some elements of "reform" in the bill are things they "always supported," and campaign on removing only the negative elements of the bill (of which there are plenty). But even that's only to get them into office; once actually there, they might occasionally make some noise about the bill, but overall they'll probably just leave it alone. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Every actual compromise in this bill was a compromise forced by Democrats (well, and Joe Lieberman). |
The only meaningful reform was the public insurance option. Obama promised the insurance firms it wouldn't be included. He did that in August.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/ny-times-reporter-confirm_b_500999.html
Obama killed it. not Lieberman. Not George Bush. Not the Republicans. Not Tea Baggers. Obama. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Every actual compromise in this bill was a compromise forced by Democrats (well, and Joe Lieberman). |
The only meaningful reform was the public insurance option. Obama promised the insurance firms it wouldn't be included. He did that in August.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/miles-mogulescu/ny-times-reporter-confirm_b_500999.html
Obama killed it. not Lieberman. Not George Bush. Not the Republicans. Not Tea Baggers. Obama. |
Lieberman outright said he wouldn't accept a public option. Several other Democrats did too. Obama's opinion was irrelevant; if the Senate won't accept a public option, what Obama did or didn't promise doesn't matter.
Unless you're trying to say that people like Joe Lieberman and Max Baucus were just acting under secret orders from Obama in opposing the public option. Given how much money some of these Democrats get from the health insurance industry, though, I doubt that would be necessary. Obama not fighting for a public option certainly didn't help (and I don't excuse him for that; my opinion of Barack Obama is not particularly high right now), but I don't think it hurt either, because the health insurance industry owns enough Democrats in the Senate to get its way regardless. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Massive credit to the Democrats and Obama today. This is an achievement. Everyone said the healthcare bill was dead after Scott Brown.
For today, at least, I'm with Ya-ta. There are certainly complications but I won't let that spoil the moment. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| I can't wait to see his campaign ads calling for the right of insurance companies to kick people off their insurance policy because they got sick, followed by a call to restore the donut hole so the elderly can pay more for their medicine. That should go over really well. |
This won't be the Republican tactic. The Republicans will say some elements of "reform" in the bill are things they "always supported," and campaign on removing only the negative elements of the bill (of which there are plenty). But even that's only to get them into office; once actually there, they might occasionally make some noise about the bill, but overall they'll probably just leave it alone. |
And the Democratic response to whatever the Republicans say will be, "They want to repeal Health Care. They voted to keep the Cornhusker Kickback."
The GOP may well have an additional problem. I'm not the only one sick to death of hearing about health care. I might just vote against anyone who even looks like he might mention it...in passing...under his breath. I might even vote against any of my students who say, "Take care of your health." |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:17 am Post subject: |
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The GOP is figuring that since Pelosi lead the Dems to victory in 2006 by saying no to everything that they will have the same success this year following the same strategy. Alas, the GOP had nothing to show for itself in 2006 (besides an unpopular war) whereas the Dems can at least look like they're doing something. And if they can manage to pass finance reform, and start on education the GOP is going to look pretty pathetic.
So let the GOP do nothing. Be interesting to see how that plays out in November. |
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