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Amazing paper about E2 discrimination (good facts)
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jdog2050



Joined: 17 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Amazing paper about E2 discrimination (good facts) Reply with quote

http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2

This is a report with some really good, hard numbers about what's happening in Korea in terms of the outcry over foreigners committing crimes versus the number of actual crimes committed. It's honestly kind of disturbing as it confirms what we've pretty much known: a lot of the government actions towards foreigners are simply not based in fact, and are done to quell xenophobic factions of the Korean public.
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Clockout



Joined: 23 Feb 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks.

Looks interesting.
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ChilgokBlackHole



Joined: 21 Nov 2009

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What outcry? What are you talking about?
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Sadebugo1



Joined: 11 May 2003

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:22 am    Post subject: Re: Amazing paper about E2 discrimination (good facts) Reply with quote

jdog2050 wrote:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15768998/Nhrck-Report-2

This is a report with some really good, hard numbers about what's happening in Korea in terms of the outcry over foreigners committing crimes versus the number of actual crimes committed. It's honestly kind of disturbing as it confirms what we've pretty much known: a lot of the government actions towards foreigners are simply not based in fact, and are done to quell xenophobic factions of the Korean public.


Yeah, the newspapers have been having a field day with the 'crime wave' brought by foreigners to Korea. This has been going on since the '90s and seems to have grown in intensity beginning with the military accident that killed the two teenagers about eight years ago. Basically, it's a desire to blame outsiders for all of Korea's problems and is based in xenophobia.

Sadebugo
http://travldawrld.blogspot.com/
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mc_jc



Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Location: C4B- Cp Red Cloud, Area-I

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only amazing thing I see is the lack of consensus within the expat community in general, and ESL community in particular, about the state sponsored discriminatory practices of the Korean immigration agency.
To many, especially those on F-visas, feel that as long as it doesn't affect them, then there is no outcry or controversy. The same goes for those who have been in Korea for a short time and base their opinions after only a few months.
While Koreans will most likely stick together on issues that affect them, foreigners are so diverse and treated so differently that it is impossible for the expat community to come together for a single cause. Koreans see this and count on this division. If there was an issue that effected Koreans living in a particular country, the local Korean association most likely would contact each and every member of the Korean expat community and ask them for their support in discussing the issue with the relevant government. We don't have such a unified association for our community who will speak for us and our issues with the Korean government (the only time we saw something even close to a unified response within the foreign community was when Korea was going to ban 2 and 3 degree, which would've effectively shut out most people from the commonwealth).
I do support the requirements as long as their is sufficient proof to their claims of the assumed "crime wave" committed by Koreans. But most of the news is hearsay and based on the crimes of a few people out of the almost 1 million foreigners currently residing in Korea.
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pkang0202



Joined: 09 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pkang0202 wrote:
Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.



Not to mention that Mr. Wagner seems to enjoy 'stirring the pot" as well to be only concerned with making a name for himself. His original report was widely discredited for lack/misrepresentation of facts and this is probably along the same lines.

Move along, nothing to see here.
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Smee



Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That link is the same paper released last year.

I wasn't aware the report was discredited. It makes a pretty strong case for discrimination and distortion in the media and among lawmakers, both of which feed the other.

Certainly ATEK has been discredited, and Ben Wagner looks like he's "stirring the pot" because except for a few bloggers he's the only one out there doing research and making progress. ATEK never survived its little scandals, and its silence over about the past half-year has been deafening. They can no longer be considered a formidable organization, but I don't recall the F-series people ever taking any exception to what Wagner wrote. They seemed to be just beating the same anti-ATEK drum.
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eamo



Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.



Not to mention that Mr. Wagner seems to enjoy 'stirring the pot" as well to be only concerned with making a name for himself. His original report was widely discredited for lack/misrepresentation of facts and this is probably along the same lines.

Move along, nothing to see here.


So anyone claiming discrimination is 'stirring the pot' and should not be listened to?

In any country as new to immigration as Korea is, any claims of discrimination, prejudice or racism should be listened to very carefully.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eamo wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.



Not to mention that Mr. Wagner seems to enjoy 'stirring the pot" as well to be only concerned with making a name for himself. His original report was widely discredited for lack/misrepresentation of facts and this is probably along the same lines.

Move along, nothing to see here.


So anyone claiming discrimination is 'stirring the pot' and should not be listened to?

In any country as new to immigration as Korea is, any claims of discrimination, prejudice or racism should be listened to very carefully.



Can you not tell the difference between "Mr. Wagner" and "anyone"? Or was that deliberate intellectual dishonesty?


If the Koreans listened to any claim of discrimination/prejudice or racism well... How many times on this board have people complained about things which were either proven to be misunderstood or trivial or a total fabrication?
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eamo



Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheUrbanMyth wrote:
eamo wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.



Not to mention that Mr. Wagner seems to enjoy 'stirring the pot" as well to be only concerned with making a name for himself. His original report was widely discredited for lack/misrepresentation of facts and this is probably along the same lines.

Move along, nothing to see here.


So anyone claiming discrimination is 'stirring the pot' and should not be listened to?

In any country as new to immigration as Korea is, any claims of discrimination, prejudice or racism should be listened to very carefully.



Can you not tell the difference between "Mr. Wagner" and "anyone"? Or was that deliberate intellectual dishonesty?


If the Koreans listened to any claim of discrimination/prejudice or racism well... How many times on this board have people complained about things which were either proven to be misunderstood or trivial or a total fabrication?


So in what situation should a claim of discrimination not be waved aside? Who have you decided who to listen to and not listen to?

You've already decided that Mr. Wagner, who seems to have put in a hell of a lot of work into this subject and would probably know 10 times more about this than you or I, shouldn't be listened to.

And you've also decided that any eslcafe member isn't worth listening to either. Oh that's right, we're all whiners who can't understand or handle Korean society and you aren't.

Are there any other groups or individuals who you, in your position as judge and all-knowing seer, think shouldn't be listened to?

Please tell us in case we hear about some discrimination in Korea then we can decide if we can ignore it or not.
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smee18



Joined: 24 Mar 2009
Location: Korea

PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Urbanmyth, which facts were discredited?
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eamo wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
eamo wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
pkang0202 wrote:
Foreigners from the English speaking countries are a minority among foreigners in Korea. Our voice is about as loud as the sound of a pin drop.



Not to mention that Mr. Wagner seems to enjoy 'stirring the pot" as well to be only concerned with making a name for himself. His original report was widely discredited for lack/misrepresentation of facts and this is probably along the same lines.

Move along, nothing to see here.


So anyone claiming discrimination is 'stirring the pot' and should not be listened to?

In any country as new to immigration as Korea is, any claims of discrimination, prejudice or racism should be listened to very carefully.



Can you not tell the difference between "Mr. Wagner" and "anyone"? Or was that deliberate intellectual dishonesty?


If the Koreans listened to any claim of discrimination/prejudice or racism well... How many times on this board have people complained about things which were either proven to be misunderstood or trivial or a total fabrication?


So in what situation should a claim of discrimination not be waved aside? Who have you decided who to listen to and not listen to?

You've already decided that Mr. Wagner, who seems to have put in a hell of a lot of work into this subject and would probably know 10 times more about this than you or I, shouldn't be listened to.

And you've also decided that any eslcafe member isn't worth listening to either. Oh that's right, we're all whiners who can't understand or handle Korean society and you aren't.

.


Ah so it is deliberate intellectual dishonesty. And you continue it with lying about what I said in the post above.

I never said that there were no eslcafe members worth listening to. Several right off the top of my head are Steelrails, Caniff, Captain Corea, Patrick, tompatz, bucheon bum and probably a good dozen more (some of who are no longer with us apparently). Even the Bobster had something to say worth listening to some of the time.

You sir, however have sadly proven the opposite. Your transparent fabrications (when one can easily look back and see what was actually said as compared to your allegations) aren't really defendable.
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Trevor



Joined: 16 Nov 2005

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
While Koreans will most likely stick together on issues that affect them, foreigners are so diverse and treated so differently that it is impossible for the expat community to come together for a single cause. Koreans see this and count on this division.


It is against our visa regulations to unionize or engage in political activities.
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PatrickGHBusan



Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -

PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

So anyone claiming discrimination is 'stirring the pot' and should not be listened to?

In any country as new to immigration as Korea is, any claims of discrimination, prejudice or racism should be listened to very carefully


Ok but most of the Foreign Teachers in Korea are NOT immigrants at all. They are for the vast majority short term guest workers on a sponsored work visa that is valid for 1-year. That is not immigration per se.

As for Wagner, to my knoweldge he has not been discredited. His reports are one voice among other voices. He is trying to make some points of law as part of his work. He is seemingly using Korea as a legal case study...when taken as such his work gains some much needed perspective. The issue is with people who then interpret his work in a way that suits their needs....then the car veers off the road and romps into the wild as it did with the initial ATEK actions.

Take Wagner for what he is: a guest lecturer - assistant professor of law making his first mark in his field of study. He has interesting ideas but his work is exploratory for the most part. It makes for interesting reading.
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