|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
|
 Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:55 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| mayorgc wrote: |
| My contention is that E2 legislation is motivated somewhat by racism. |
"Somewhat"? How about "purely"? The basic regulations passed years ago were not racist. The changes in the last few years are.
| Quote: |
| Why are these elected officials blaming foreigners at all? |
It plays well with the home crowd. And one of the legislators pulling that stunt wasn't an elected member of parliament; she's one of the special interest group appointees.
| Quote: |
| I don't understand how there's zero racism involved (which is what some people seem to believe). I already know that not all of the E2 regulations/rules are racist, but for people to claim that there's no racist intent just boggles my mind (even though E2s aren't a race, they are predominantly whiteys). |
You're dealing with some people on this board who cannot comprehend that targeting all or nearly all non-Koreans is racist.
Last edited by CentralCali on Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
ChilgokBlackHole
Joined: 21 Nov 2009
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Korea could save itself money, time and aggravation by making all of this part of off-shore visa issuance. This would also protect teachers because no one would come to Korea without a visa unless they were already there looking for work. Then the testing would occur locally and the applicant would be aware of it. |
The Korean government couldn't accept a medical check from the US any more than the US government could accept a medical check done in Korea. As part of a comprehensive history, the information is useful. Beyond that... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| CentralCali wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
| My contention is that E2 legislation is motivated somewhat by racism. |
"Somewhat"? How about "purely"? The basic regulations passed years ago were not racist. The changes in the last few years are.
| Quote: |
| Why are these elected officials blaming foreigners at all? |
It plays well with the home crowd. And one of the legislators pulling that stunt wasn't an elected member of parliament; she's one of the special interest group appointees.
| Quote: |
| I don't understand how there's zero racism involved (which is what some people seem to believe). I already know that not all of the E2 regulations/rules are racist, but for people to claim that there's no racist intent just boggles my mind (even though E2s aren't a race, they are predominantly whiteys). |
You're dealing with some people on this board who cannot comprehend that targeting all or nearly all non-Koreans is racist. |
What I'm trying to say is that if you call it racism you're missing the true nature of things which is its really about politics and bureaucratic
procedures.
If you conclude the problem is bureaucratic/political then you need a bureaucratic/political solution. Good Luck.
If you conclude its racism then the solution to said problem is to make people not racist. Worse Luck.
Racism is like Religion. Window dressing for other forces at play. Some people involved were racist. Some fo the reactions were racist. Ultimately its a bureaucratic style decision which has led to the current policies.
I've said it before- Racism implies 'morality'. The morality of racism is messed up, but there is a code to it. But politicians, for the most part, don't base their decisions on a moral code, they base their decisions on what is politically expedient.
The sooner us NETs realize that this was a bureaucratic/political measure we'll be better off for it because then we'll understand the true nature of the problem and be able to find solutions accordingly. Not to say the moral dynamic is not a part of it, just we can't go around saying 'racism' when and expecting a solution when the nature of the problem is so different. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Are any Korean public school or hagwon teachers required to do CBCs? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mayorgc wrote: |
Yes, I know foreigners aren't blamed all the time when a crime is committed against a child, I was just generalizing.
My contention is that E2 legislation is motivated somewhat by racism.
| Quote: |
Some members of the PRESS and a few elected officials play the blame the foreigner card however and as wrong as that is...it fits into if it bleeds, it leads.... |
Why are these elected officials blaming foreigners at all? When Jo DuSun obliterated a little girls inner organs, one elected official's direct reaction/suggestion was "We will call for tighter restrictions on foreigners" or "foreigners who commit sex crimes against Korean children will be deported and forbidden to re-enter Korea."
When a Korean teacher diddled some kiddies at a camp, the response was that "these incidents can happen at any time since Native speaking teachers are not screened properly".
Why are foreigners lumped into these cases at all? I don't understand how there's zero racism involved (which is what some people seem to believe). I already know that not all of the E2 regulations/rules are racist, but for people to claim that there's no racist intent just boggles my mind (even though E2s aren't a race, they are predominantly whiteys).
Back in 1936, Germany, Hitler blamed the Jews for all of the country's problems. E2s aren't being persecuted like the Jews, they're treated pretty great in the overall big picture. But when crap happens and foreigners/E2s get unfairly blamed (not just by press, but by politicians too), there's definitely some sort of xenophobia/racism going on.
Secondly, I never said Koreans aren't jailed for their crimes. I know very well that Koreans are caught and punished. The issue is that foreigners are somehow pulled into the mix after the Korean perp is sent off to prison. |
[/quote]
Some of these people blame foreigners for the same reason some members of the press do my friend: it makes a splash. Some of these people are also racist pigs....some however does not translate into most or all.
Also PLEASE do not bring the Nazi issue as a comparison even if you just use it in passing as something far worse. All this does it fuel the idiocy that lies just below the surface on this forum.
Still I agree that on some occasions foreigners get dragged through the mud and that this is just not right. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| The Korean government couldn't accept a medical check from the US any more than the US government could accept a medical check done in Korea. As part of a comprehensive history, the information is useful. Beyond that... |
But they could accept them readily if the proper system was put into place.
By the way chicago...my wife had to pass a medical to get her permanent residency in Canada, she passed her medical in Korea, with a Korean doctor that was on the list of the embassy...it can be done and is done all the time..so why not for work visas? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Steelrails:
Something that is taught at good universities is the concept of multiple variables. So, we should be able to understand that a politician can make decisions based on political and racist agendas. These things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, these two variables most likely function together. As for �the true nature� of the decision being political, then the follow on question has to be �for what purpose?�. Political decisions are not made in a vacuum.
Some have said the AIDS test in country was to further the propaganda of AES. They get more coverage by testing and deporting. The meme of diseased foreigners would be easy to maintain with a steady stream of deportees. Those not allowed into Korea would not provide any headlines. I am sure AES must be very disappointed that they have not managed to reap what they thought would be a number of AIDS ridden scum deported from Korea, thereby supporting their particular �solution to the moral dynamic� of foreigners living here.
Steelrails, you have dismissed AES in the past as being of no consequence. Having read a number all of Wagner�s paper and Vardon�s, I cannot dismiss them as readily as you are able to. But as we have discussed previously, your experiences in Korea are different to mine. You blend and are therefore somewhat immune to the stares, name calling, and minor assaults that I have experienced. You have your own difficulties, which you will notice I do deny you or belittle.
In previous threads I have wondered why the focus on AIDS. There are so many other communicable diseases than AIDS that pose greater threats to children. In fact, unless some people think that NETs are here having sex with children, the test does nothing towards the protection of children. But on the other hand, it fits nicely with the meme of AIDS ridden pedophiles.
So really the only argument for the tests that can be made is the tests are about the protection of the greater population. Therefore EVERYONE should be tested before an entry permit is provided, for EVERYONE regardless of visa status. That would include returning Koreans (that is if it for the protection of the population). I have no problems with testing, I have a problem with using AIDS to stigmatize a whole class of people. AIDS and its costs to a society should not be used as a weapon to further a racist agenda.
PatrickGH: I agree, measures of grey. Perhaps you are comfortable with the level of grey, others of us are not. Who is right? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Are any Korean public school or hagwon teachers required to do CBCs? |
All full time public school teachers are required to do CBC's whether Korean or foreign. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Some of these people blame foreigners for the same reason some members of the press do my friend: it makes a splash. Some of these people are also racist pigs....some however does not translate into most or all.
Also PLEASE do not bring the Nazi issue as a comparison even if you just use it in passing as something far worse. All this does it fuel the idiocy that lies just below the surface on this forum.
Still I agree that on some occasions foreigners get dragged through the mud and that this is just not right. |
I never said that some translated to most or all. You're projecting. I'm just saying that the element of racism exists in the legislation. It could be .1% or it could be 3%, it's not quantifiable, but I never said most or all.
In terms of the Nazi issue, we all know that Hitler wanted to get rid of the Jews and the Jews were being blamed for all sorts of problems. The korea comparison isn't obviously 1 to 1, but if you deny that there aren't similarities, then that's just silly. I'm not saying they are exactly the same situation, I'm saying there are similarities. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Are any Korean public school or hagwon teachers required to do CBCs? |
All full time public school teachers are required to do CBC's whether Korean or foreign. |
But, hogwan teachers are not. Right, Denise? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crescent wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Are any Korean public school or hagwon teachers required to do CBCs? |
All full time public school teachers are required to do CBC's whether Korean or foreign. |
But, hogwan teachers are not. Right, Denise? |
Yes Denise, that is correct.
Only hakwon teachers on an E-2 visa are. If you are on a F-series visa you don't have to provide a CBC. Nor do Korean teachers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Only hakwon teachers on an E-2 visa are. If you are on a F-series visa you don't have to provide a CBC. Nor do Korean teachers. |
In other words: the Korean government does not care about protecting the children. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Old fat expat wrote: |
Steelrails:
Something that is taught at good universities is the concept of multiple variables. So, we should be able to understand that a politician can make decisions based on political and racist agendas. These things are not mutually exclusive. In fact, these two variables most likely function together. As for �the true nature� of the decision being political, then the follow on question has to be �for what purpose?�. Political decisions are not made in a vacuum.
Some have said the AIDS test in country was to further the propaganda of AES. They get more coverage by testing and deporting. The meme of diseased foreigners would be easy to maintain with a steady stream of deportees. Those not allowed into Korea would not provide any headlines. I am sure AES must be very disappointed that they have not managed to reap what they thought would be a number of AIDS ridden scum deported from Korea, thereby supporting their particular �solution to the moral dynamic� of foreigners living here.
Steelrails, you have dismissed AES in the past as being of no consequence. Having read a number all of Wagner�s paper and Vardon�s, I cannot dismiss them as readily as you are able to. But as we have discussed previously, your experiences in Korea are different to mine. You blend and are therefore somewhat immune to the stares, name calling, and minor assaults that I have experienced. You have your own difficulties, which you will notice I do deny you or belittle.
In previous threads I have wondered why the focus on AIDS. There are so many other communicable diseases than AIDS that pose greater threats to children. In fact, unless some people think that NETs are here having sex with children, the test does nothing towards the protection of children. But on the other hand, it fits nicely with the meme of AIDS ridden pedophiles.
So really the only argument for the tests that can be made is the tests are about the protection of the greater population. Therefore EVERYONE should be tested before an entry permit is provided, for EVERYONE regardless of visa status. That would include returning Koreans (that is if it for the protection of the population). I have no problems with testing, I have a problem with using AIDS to stigmatize a whole class of people. AIDS and its costs to a society should not be used as a weapon to further a racist agenda.
PatrickGH: I agree, measures of grey. Perhaps you are comfortable with the level of grey, others of us are not. Who is right? |
Actually with the tone you are using now, I largely agree with you. This isn't black and white you are throwing out, this is grey.
There is a world of difference between "this law is racist" and "racism was one of many factors in this law coming about (and may not even be the most critical)"
Also in this we should remember that to 90% of Koreans we are seen neither as criminals, nor pedophiles, nor drug addicts, nor disease ridden. I choose to focus on that 90%, not the 10%.
If anything we get special perks because we are foreign. Two days ago a group of foreigners (mostly caucasian) went to a pub. The owners booted 4 people celebrating a birthday out of the room to make way for us. The birthday group smiled and graciously moved to a less ideal spot and then sent us pieces of cake.
Yesterday this same group goes out to dinner and the owners there call the ice cream place next door and arrange for us to get free ice cream after the dinner.
Now because we were foreign we got these things. I like the good, so I'll take the bad. I can deal with the bad without it getting me bent out of shape. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old fat expat
Joined: 19 Sep 2005
Location: a caravan of dust, making for a windy prairie
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I don't see where my position has changed. I have consistently argued against a discriminatory law driven by a racist agenda.
Sorry if my "tone" in one post was not to your liking. You did, however, describe me as "extreme" and "hate filled" and suggest prior to that I needed to "get a clue as to how the world works". I think it is your tone that has changed.
I know you generally try to be balanced and fair. But if you bark at me, I might just bark a little back. It is how the world works.
As for good treatment. Never said it did not happen. As before, I maintain there are multiple variables at play. I also understand that generosity in the Korean context is different than what we understand in the West. Often here, generosity is as much about hierarchy and ownership of the other as anything else. Bit of a hold over from China as I understand it. Think of it as some/many church people being charitable to prove their piety (i.e. it is about them, not about being nice to others).
As for the 90% indifferent and 10% hateful. Interesting you use statistics. I thought you had an aversion to them? I know they are not sourced from anywhere, just your perception. I think what many posters wonder is where are the XX% that are providing support for us. Did you not notice you left that cohort out. Are there just 2 groups? Do you think there are Koreans willing to stand up for us against racist groups like AES?
To help you better understand how things can be both good and bad consider Herzberg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-factor_theory |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
