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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
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| My atheism has nothing to do with people who came before us, |
Oh come on. That is not true.
You are not that superior to everyone in humanity that you supposedly came to your belief with no external influences. |
Maybe you'd understand that statement better if, instead of clipping it out in isolation, you had included the statement of .38's which it was responding it:
| .38 special wrote: |
| It's about setting yourself apart from the races of men who preceded you and saying you're better. |
In short, .38 was saying the purpose of atheism is specifically to set ourselves apart from and insist that we are better than our predecessors. My response was that no, it's not. That doesn't mean I'm 100% free of external influence (after all, the world we live in, if nothing else, shaped me into the kind of person not willing to believe in faerie tales without evidence). None the less, I'm an atheist for one reason: I see no reason what-so-ever to believe in divinity. Anyone who puts forward any reason other than that is wrong. Anyone who tries to make it about, "Being better than other people," or, "Being cool," or, "Being edgy," is just projecting their own emotions.
The fact that theists in this thread are sitting here trying to insist they know my mindset and my reasons better than I do is just more inane arrogance. Now, with Summer's inanity out of the way, back to the actual focus of the article.
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| article posted by mises wrote: |
Moscow should end this historical tragedy by granting Chechnya independence. Doing so is of course risky: it could spark demands by other Caucasian Muslims for independence, and enflame some of Russia�s 20 million-strong Muslim minority � though most still appear content to live in the Russian Federation.
An independent Chechnya could also open another door to growing US penetration of the Caucasus and campaign to encircle Russia. The US and Russia came frighteningly close to a head-on clash over Georgia. The Cold War has not ended.
An independent Chechnya would be unstable and violent. But that is better than the savagery and atrocities that this terrible conflict continues to generate.
Modern Russia needs to set the Chechen free. |
This sounds to me like a lot of reasons why Russia shouldn't set Chechnya free, at least in response to its own interests. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree with Fox. I don't see how Russia can stop now. If its destroyed all moderate Chechnyan resistance, that just leaves the diehards and the broken. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm an idealist. I guess. Let them be free. Too much blood. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| I agree with Fox. I don't see how Russia can stop now. If its destroyed all moderate Chechnyan resistance, that just leaves the diehards and the broken. |
So you support genocide? I mean what is the alternative then? Wipe them out or let them have their independence. Is there really any other possibility? |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2010 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| I agree with Fox. I don't see how Russia can stop now. If its destroyed all moderate Chechnyan resistance, that just leaves the diehards and the broken. |
So you support genocide? I mean what is the alternative then? Wipe them out or let them have their independence. Is there really any other possibility? |
Likely no. The conflict will continue. For a state. It's gross. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| I agree with Fox. I don't see how Russia can stop now. If its destroyed all moderate Chechnyan resistance, that just leaves the diehards and the broken. |
So you support genocide? I mean what is the alternative then? Wipe them out or let them have their independence. Is there really any other possibility? |
So you support giving into terror?
C'mon. Lets not start putting words into each others' mouths.
There's no beneficial outcome here. This isn't like the drug war, the cessation of which would result in immediate gains as well as long-term healing. Leaving extremists in power is a bad option. Yeltsin started the terror and Putin continued it. They have to pacify the extremists now, and I'm not advocating carpet bombings or sweeping detentions. The Russians certainly can't leave the current militants, wolves if there ever were, in charge of Chechnya. Of course, if the current leadership aren't extremists, then the best course of action would be to let Chechnya be independent.
But I think the Russians need to focus on penetrating terrorist cells within Russia before they tackle any more operations in Chechnya.
Besides, there's something to be said for fighting civil wars to prevent national defragmentation. But, certainly the Russians went well too far when they started annihilating civilians. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| I agree with Fox. I don't see how Russia can stop now. If its destroyed all moderate Chechnyan resistance, that just leaves the diehards and the broken. |
So you support genocide? I mean what is the alternative then? Wipe them out or let them have their independence. Is there really any other possibility? |
So you support giving into terror? |
I am sympathetic when it is related to being systematically repressed off and on for nearly 100 years.
| Quote: |
| There's no beneficial outcome here. This isn't like the drug war, the cessation of which would result in immediate gains as well as long-term healing. Leaving extremists in power is a bad option. Yeltsin started the terror and Putin continued it. They have to pacify the extremists now, and I'm not advocating carpet bombings or sweeping detentions. The Russians certainly can't leave the current militants, wolves if there ever were, in charge of Chechnya. Of course, if the current leadership aren't extremists, then the best course of action would be to let Chechnya be independent. |
The current leadership was installed by Russia. They are Russian puppets. They would probably fall if Chechnya became independent.
| Quote: |
| But I think the Russians need to focus on penetrating terrorist cells within Russia before they tackle any more operations in Chechnya. |
This is a given. Would also help if Russia itself stopped being a gangster state. Rampant corruption is one reason events such as this happen.
| Quote: |
| Besides, there's something to be said for fighting civil wars to prevent national defragmentation. But, certainly the Russians went well too far when they started annihilating civilians. |
How is fighting Chechnya preventing national defragmentation? Russia, in this instance, is like Indonesia was with East Timor: freaked out that "losing" some small territory will encourage other provinces to do the same. At least Indonesia finally woke up to the situation and let East Timor become independent. Amazingly the rest of Indonesia has stayed intact since then. |
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