|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:58 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| To pull out now would be basically throwing everything (including the loss of life on both sides) away. |
So, if they pull out now, everything goes to pot. But...
| Quote: |
| The American forces are leaving within a year anyway. |
What sort of things are going to happen within the next one year that will make a pullout less damaging at that time as opposed to now? |
They won't pull out. The date is a political fiction. |
Quite possibly. But that was Urban Myth's claim, so I'm wondering what he thinks about it. |
That's not MY claim. That is what the White House says. |
Well hot damn. The White House! Why didn't you say so? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It's been in the news for months that American forces are going to be drawn down and will be entirely out of Iraq by 2011's end.
I didn't think it needed saying...I had supposed everyone had read that. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
When the opponents of said military are hiding among the civilian populace as the insurgents are.... |
I know. It's gross.
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/iraq-war-vet-we-were-told-to-just-shoot-people-and-the-officers-would-take-care-of-us
| Quote: |
Scott Ewing, who served in Iraq from 2005-2006, admitted on one panel that units intentionally gave candy to Iraqi children for reasons other than �winning hearts and minds.
�There was also another motive,� Ewing said. �If the kids were around our vehicles, the bad guys wouldn�t attack. We used the kids as human shields.� |
|
So because one disgrunted soldier says something...it's automatically true? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I didn't think it needed saying...I had supposed everyone had read that. |
Yes. We all know. Those of us who keep past government promises in mind when considering new government promises know never to trust government promises.
| Quote: |
| So because one disgrunted soldier says something...it's automatically true? |
No. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7579132/Wikileaks-to-release-video-of-US-strike-on-Afghan-civilians.html
| Quote: |
Wikileaks 'to release video of US strike on Afghan civilians'
Wikileaks, the whistle-blower website, is reportedly preparing to release secret video of a notorious US air strike said to have killed scores of Afghan civilians.
The video apparently shows previously classified footage from US warplanes called in to bomb Taliban fighters during a fire fight in Farah province last year.
The Afghan government said at the time that the strikes by F-18 and B1 planes near Granai killed 147 civilians. An independent Afghan inquiry later put the toll at 86. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I didn't think it needed saying...I had supposed everyone had read that. |
Yes. We all know. Those of us who keep past government promises in mind when considering new government promises know never to trust government promises. |
Fair enough. However if you look at the thread entitled "Obama the Sun King" just a few threads below this one you can see Bucheon Bum's links to articles which show that this is already happening. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: TJ: |
|
|
| T-J wrote: |
| leopard7 wrote: |
To TJ: No TJ, you got it all wrong again. We, the Western powers, have been invading the Muslim world since before the Crusades (you do remember The Crusades, don't you?) and then we forced Israel in the Arabs' back yard in 1947, and they hate us because we keep invading them (remember GW Bush Senior invading Iraq in 1990-'91 just for the oil. It was Kuwait that started the war by blowing up Iraqi oil fields, a sure way to set off a war in the MidEast.) I see history is yet another subject you are unacquainted with. I have my work cut out for me to stop your flow of erroneous information. Please TJ, read a book once in a while and improve your knowledge. Bloviating and rambling about subjects you are not acquainted with is painful to we who actually study these issues.
|
Wow, where to start. Muslim hatred, or intolerance does predate the crusades, it was the Muslims that invaded the holy land ending Roman occupation at the time, an occupation that predated both the Christian and Muslim religions.
While the merits of establishing a Jewish state at the end of WWII is debatable, I think it over simplifies things to say it is the fault of the U.S. The post WWI territorial divisions put in place by the British Empire bear much more blame, wouldn't you agree?
As for the first Gulf War, yes I remember it well, too well. And no Kuwait did not start that war. Saddam was given very poor diplomatic communication that led to his miscalculating the Western response to an invasion of Kuwait.
All of this is really very off-topic and would best be discussed in another thread. The topic here is the video that was released. |
Invading Roman controlled areas is not an example of hatred per se unless we say all occupations and the domination of countries are an example of hatred. Could you care to explain how it is exactly say more of an evidence of hatred than say France occupying the Ivory Coast in the past? I am not saying there isn't ideological hatred with many religious and sectarian type thinking in the world. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| When our pyramid scheme of an economy crashes and we can no longer buy friends over there, it'll probably be some guy wearing a big turban who will run the show in Iraq. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 7:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Reggie wrote: |
| When our pyramid scheme of an economy crashes and we can no longer buy friends over there, it'll probably be some guy wearing a big turban who will run the show in Iraq. |
From Iran. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| mises wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
When the opponents of said military are hiding among the civilian populace as the insurgents are.... |
I know. It's gross.
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/iraq-war-vet-we-were-told-to-just-shoot-people-and-the-officers-would-take-care-of-us
| Quote: |
Scott Ewing, who served in Iraq from 2005-2006, admitted on one panel that units intentionally gave candy to Iraqi children for reasons other than �winning hearts and minds.
�There was also another motive,� Ewing said. �If the kids were around our vehicles, the bad guys wouldn�t attack. We used the kids as human shields.� |
|
I already posted this article on page 8. (Doesn't anyone pay attention?  )
| Quote: |
| Then perhaps we should pull out and let the insurgents take over. Except that after all that time, loss of life and money spent to remove Saddam...another Saddam takes over. |
Saddam did not just come out of nowhere. He was our puppet there for 27 years before we turned on him.
The same is happening now in Afghanistan with Hamid Karzai, the former board member of UNOCAL which wants desperately to build a pipeline through the country. He was our man. We put him in power, and now we are getting ready to take him out. As he himself said, "Our interests no longer coincide." Hence his threat to join the Taliban. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For me, the video cannot be judged unless you clearly define the reasons for war. If the US is there to wipe out XXX forces, then perhaps it's justified. If they are there to install democracy, then it's damaging.
The rules of warfare are often tied to the objectives.
Last edited by Captain Corea on Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Swampthing500 wrote: |
Unless the enemy are wearing uniforms, nothing is 100% certain.
|
I don't care. I expect more from anyone taking other people's lives into their hands, and so should you.
| Swampthing500 wrote: |
| As it stands, the area was a combat zone ... |
You keep saying this, but the American army can just declare any area it wants a combat zone. It's not like the people who live there get a vote on the matter. What you seem to be saying is, "If an army declares where you live a combat zone, get out or else they're totally justified in murdering you at their discretion." Is that really the minimum standard you want to hold our army to?
| Swampthing500 wrote: |
| The helicopter, which was supporting the troops, saw a group of armed men in the area. They made the right decision at the time. |
The fact that you consider killing non-combatants the "right decision" is horrific. |
Fox, I agree with you about calling areas of someone else's country a combat zone in an urban environment. The country is for Iraqis.
I watched the video many times.
1)There was no evidence that the group opened fire on the helicopter, and that's what the helicopter claimed as recorded.
2)There was no smoke from an RPG or people from the group pointing AK-47s at the helicopter. They looked surprised. If you're on the attack, you wouldn't be surprised like that.
3)The pilot said six people had AK-47s. No more than three had machine guns and most people said two. I saw what may have been a third machine gun.
4)Being armed isn't strange in Iraq.
5)The pilot also fired on a person who he said wasn't armed by saying, and I quote, "Pick up a gun". The rules of engagement say you shouldn't fire on a wounded person leaving the scene. These are in the rules.
6)Just before firing, the pilot called the van a bongo truck. Those trucks are used by insurgents. The van wasn't a bongo truck.
A friend of mine in the military trashed me for discussing it on my facebook where I said might understand firing before firing on a wounded person who is unarmed and carried by clearly unarmed men. For me, I view as more sacred the lives of innocent people, then blindly following a government or military or religion. As the Canadian band, Rush, sang
"Those his mind is not for rent for any god or government....".
I am tired of the blind jingoism, lies from the government, military, and what about the videos that some have seen showing the abuse of Iraqis. Very few people have been prosecuted. Why?
Lt. Col. Tony Shaffer, who joined Assange on the program, said that based on what he saw in the video, it appeared to be a violation of the military�s Rules of Engagement.
�First rule is, you may engage persons who commit hostile acts or show hostile intent by minimum force necessary,� he said. �Minimum force is necessary. If you see eight armed men, the first thing I would think as an intelligence officer is, �How can we take these guys and capture them?� We don�t want to kill people arbitrarily; we want the intel take.
�Now, most importantly, when you see that van show up to take away the wounded, do not target or strike anyone who has surrendered or is out of combat due to sickness or wounds. So, the wound part of that I find disturbing, being that you clearly have people down, you have people on the way there. Speaking as an intelligence officer, my intent is to capture people, to recover them. That is the idea here. If you�re not really doing that, you�re not really doing precise |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| bacasper wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Then perhaps we should pull out and let the insurgents take over. Except that after all that time, loss of life and money spent to remove Saddam...another Saddam takes over. |
Saddam did not just come out of nowhere. He was our puppet there for 27 years before we turned on him.
. |
"Our puppet".
So his attack on Kuwait was supported by the U.S?
So his gassing of the Kurds was supported by the U.S?
So his refusal to let U.N. inspectors in was supported by the U.S?
And I could cite dozens of more examples over the years.
Is it fun living in a world, where you don't have to consider any pesky facts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Then perhaps we should pull out and let the insurgents take over. Except that after all that time, loss of life and money spent to remove Saddam...another Saddam takes over. |
Saddam did not just come out of nowhere. He was our puppet there for 27 years before we turned on him.
. |
"Our puppet".
So his attack on Kuwait was supported by the U.S?
So his gassing of the Kurds was supported by the U.S?
So his refusal to let U.N. inspectors in was supported by the U.S?
And I could cite dozens of more examples over the years.
Is it fun living in a world, where you don't have to consider any pesky facts? |
Glad the attack on Kuwait was mentioned.
The Kuwaiti oil company had moved slant drilling equipment right near the border with Iraq. They were stealing Iraqi oil. Saddam consulted with the Bush administration about an invasion over this and was given the green light in a set-up. That was then used as the pretext for the invasion now that he had outlived his usefulness for us.
One can chew on those facts for awhile. Or he can just keep making snide, stupid comments if his self-esteem is so low that he needs to feel good about himself that way. Having professionally practiced counseling, I know just how therapeutic that can be for some patients. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
[q
| Quote: |
| Then perhaps we should pull out and let the insurgents take over. Except that after all that time, loss of life and money spent to remove Saddam...another Saddam takes over. |
Saddam did not just come out of nowhere. He was our puppet there for 27 years before we turned on him.
. |
"Our puppet".
So his attack on Kuwait was supported by the U.S?
So his gassing of the Kurds was supported by the U.S?
So his refusal to let U.N. inspectors in was supported by the U.S?
And I could cite dozens of more examples over the years.
Is it fun living in a world, where you don't have to consider any pesky facts? |
This is much more complicated then you think. I lived in Kuwait, and I have followed things from the time of the Iraq-Iran War, the bombing of the US embasssy in Kuwait. In short, the Ba'ath party was placed in power in '68 and Saddam rose through the ranks and took power. In 1979, the US encouraged Saddam to invade Iran during the revolution.
The war ended in 1988 with Iraq's victory. I remember hearing bombs hit Iraq. It was constant.
During the Iraq-Iran War, Kuwaiti tankers had American flags for protection, but in 1990 the US did not warn Saddam not to invade Kuwait.
I remember that year. I was in New York. I had left Kuwait for the summer. I was in Ithaca, New York at Cornell. I was with some Anglo-Indian neighbors who lived in Kuwait. They were worried about the 80,000 soldiers on the border, and so was I. People at Cornell knew how to call long distance for free. I used that only twice. I called Kuwait six hours before the invasion. I talked to a calm friend who said nothing would happen, and I argued with him that I wasn't assured, and I had a feeling something was going to happen. I also warned friends about Saddam in May of that year and said he was unstable and would "Do something you wouldn't like". I had also warned of what might possibly happen in 2003 when we invaded Iraq. I said that year, "When you think the war is over, that's when it will begin". I was ridiculed for saying that.
In 1990, the Soviet Union fell, Iran was exhausted. Saddam, like Noriega of Panama, was no longer useful. He hinted that he wanted to invade Kuwait. April Glaspie said it was not the U.S's concern and so did Margart Tutweiler. Saddam invades Kuwait, and there is no indication he was going to invade Saudi Arabia. Bush senior pressures Saudi to take troops.
Back home, in the US, there was still the legacy of the Vietnam War.
People were reluctant to go to war. We heard, "No blood for oil".
So, as Chomsy would say, "Consent had to be manufactured." But how?
Hill&Knowlton with connections to Bush senior got a Kuwaiti girl to testify that Iraqi soldiers tossed babies out of incubators. It wasn't true. The media didn't identify the girl as a member of the Sabah family, the royal family.
Look, the American people and the people of Iraq are victims of politics.
It's clear. I am not a truther. I am recounting my memories, my following of the papers, information that's readily out there for those who research. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
