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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:51 am Post subject: |
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I deleted my comment cause I don't want to get into it. However, the visa changes are welcome and also a signal of something larger to come from the Cons. The CD Howe institute last week released a report about how immigration will not fix our unfunded liabilities. I strongly believe it makes them worse.
I do not believe the Cons will be successful in pushing for reform of the system. And the Liberals have imported a new population, loyal to the party and not the nation. This will be the last Conservative government, I assume, in my lifetime. Maybe they'll get another minority. But 250k "new Canadians" year after year who overwhelmingly vote Lib seals the deal. Canada will be more of a one-party state from now on. The Green Party, NDP, Cons and Bloc are from Canada's past. The new Canada will vote Liberal, always and forever. |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Gov't Approves Fingerprinting of All Foreigners
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http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2009/11/04/2009110400292.html
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| Nine countries including France, Japan, Spain, and the U.S. currently fingerprint visitors. The EU will start fingerprinting them from 2010, and Taiwan and Canada are considering it. |
Time's up. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:36 am Post subject: |
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That's disgusting. (Why isn't there a barf emoticon?) |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:41 am Post subject: |
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It's ironic that after so many years of a cold war, we probably have more open borders than ever in modern times. So, why now? Do people really believe that the world is more dangerous now than 20 years ago?
Is it because we have such open borders? (relatively speaking, compared to earlier times, and travel habits) Because of more trade between more nations? Isn't that a good thing? If it is, then why should this be necessary?
Will this really accomplish its goal of providing more security?
I think not. It merely 'punishes' the honest people. If you don't care, then it doesn't matter, but I find it insulting and unreasonable. I will not do it. Therefore, it restricts my freedom.
What I find most astonishing is that few people seem to care.
Are they afraid? Does this really make one feel safer? It makes me feel more insecure.
Another aspect is the suggestion of nationalism behind this. After all, there are just as many bad people within a nation's borders as there are without.
When the time comes, if I am unable to stop it, I will be surrendering my citizenship. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Arthur Dent wrote: |
It's ironic that after so many years of a cold war, we probably have more open borders than ever in modern times. So, why now? Do people really believe that the world is more dangerous now than 20 years ago?
Is it because we have such open borders? (relatively speaking, compared to earlier times, and travel habits) Because of more trade between more nations? Isn't that a good thing? If it is, then why should this be necessary?
Will this really accomplish its goal of providing more security?
I think not. It merely 'punishes' the honest people. If you don't care, then it doesn't matter, but I find it insulting and unreasonable. I will not do it. Therefore, it restricts my freedom.
What I find most astonishing is that few people seem to care.
Are they afraid? Does this really make one feel safer? It makes me feel more insecure.
Another aspect is the suggestion of nationalism behind this. After all, there are just as many bad people within a nation's borders as there are without.
When the time comes, if I am unable to stop it, I will be surrendering my citizenship. |
Along with the citizenship you have to give up your passport.
Not too many other countries make a habit of admitting people without a passport. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Arthur Dent wrote: |
It's ironic that after so many years of a cold war, we probably have more open borders than ever in modern times. So, why now? Do people really believe that the world is more dangerous now than 20 years ago?
Is it because we have such open borders? (relatively speaking, compared to earlier times, and travel habits) Because of more trade between more nations? Isn't that a good thing? If it is, then why should this be necessary?
Will this really accomplish its goal of providing more security?
I think not. It merely 'punishes' the honest people. If you don't care, then it doesn't matter, but I find it insulting and unreasonable. I will not do it. Therefore, it restricts my freedom.
What I find most astonishing is that few people seem to care.
Are they afraid? Does this really make one feel safer? It makes me feel more insecure.
Another aspect is the suggestion of nationalism behind this. After all, there are just as many bad people within a nation's borders as there are without.
When the time comes, if I am unable to stop it, I will be surrendering my citizenship. |
Along with the citizenship you have to give up your passport.
Not too many other countries make a habit of admitting people without a passport. |
No need to fret, Arthur. Apply for a World Service Authority passport. It has been accepted on a de facto basis in 150 countries and is officially recognized in six. It will not always work everywhere (not even a UN passport does), but it does sometimes and is better than nothing. (N.B. If you try to use it to enter South Korea, do not be surprised if you get deported.) |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:14 am Post subject: |
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Urban Myth wrote:
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Along with the citizenship you have to give up your passport.
Not too many other countries make a habit of admitting people without a passport. |
Yes. And likely any credit cards, your S.I.N. number, most legal job possibilities - unless you are obscenely rich, which by some accident or oversight I am not - and any likelihood of owning a house or property. Probably many other things as well.
Believe me, I am well aware of what I stand to lose, maybe more so than many who seem to live life so unconsciously.
Citizenship is worth a great deal. But without freedom its worth nothing. Most probably think me a fool for this. And I am. It is no consolation to know they are bigger fools, at least in my view, and this, sadly, may include some who are family and friends.
Were you trying to cheer me up? 
Seriously though Urban, I'm not much of an idealist. I've been around too long for that. Seen and done and read too much.
What will happen? I have no idea. Our government has yet to institute this. Probably people will be too apathetic to fight it. Most have no idea what it is they are surrendering. Most people are too involved in playing with new gadgets and counting their chickens. Who can blame them? Many think it is nothing. I can't convince everyone.
Mises had a lot to say on this, and he made good points, but all of them were strictly political - in the sense that this is more about politics (realpolitik) than it is about real security and the Western world (or modern if you like) demonstrating real strength and solidarity. I'm not afraid of all these threats we face today, as long as we really face them, and deal with them realistically. Because really, this will accomplish nothing, while taking away something of real value, ephemeral though it may be. And perhaps, all things of real value to people are ephemeral.
But I'm not going to put up with it. Its time we realized that this is the only home we are likely to ever have, and it is our home. Might as well make ourselves comfortable. I see no reason to have to account for myself with fingerprints when I have done nothing to harm anyone.
What interests me is how Canada will deal with my situation. If I have no passport, how can I leave? And if I don't want to leave, how will they make me? The truth is, legal reasons hold no water. It cannot be denied that this planet is my home - Canada in particular. I'm not applying for citizenship elsewhere.
If you're interested, head over to Brian's site to see my post on there. I'll be interested to see what people think - even if its bad.
It's the split double long one....
Anyway Urban, I hope for your moral support if nothing else.
Anyone can think I am an idiot if they want, but let me put it to you this way: Imagine for a moment, that something you personally value more than anything, is being removed - even if no one else really understands what that thing is and why you value it - and the price for keeping it, is everything else. What would you do?
Casper, I'll have a look at that, but I don't see how it would avoid the fingerprint issue. I wouldn't visit a country that required fingerprints anyway, even though I would love a return visit to Japan, and wouldn't mind a trip to Montana for some fly-fishing, if nowhere else in the States. And thanks for your support, as always.
Have we not been on this planet for long enough to stop being afraid of our own shadows (literally)? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Arthur Dent wrote: |
Urban Myth wrote:
| Quote: |
Along with the citizenship you have to give up your passport.
Not too many other countries make a habit of admitting people without a passport. |
Yes. And likely any credit cards, your S.I.N. number, most legal job possibilities - unless you are obscenely rich, which by some accident or oversight I am not - and any likelihood of owning a house or property. Probably many other things as well.
Believe me, I am well aware of what I stand to lose, maybe more so than many who seem to live life so unconsciously.
Citizenship is worth a great deal. But without freedom its worth nothing. Most probably think me a fool for this. And I am. It is no consolation to know they are bigger fools, at least in my view, and this, sadly, may include some who are family and friends.
Were you trying to cheer me up?
Seriously though Urban, I'm not much of an idealist. I've been around too long for that. Seen and done and read too much.
What will happen? I have no idea. Our government has yet to institute this. Probably people will be too apathetic to fight it. Most have no idea what it is they are surrendering. Most people are too involved in playing with new gadgets and counting their chickens. Who can blame them? Many think it is nothing. I can't convince everyone.
Mises had a lot to say on this, and he made good points, but all of them were strictly political - in the sense that this is more about politics (realpolitik) than it is about real security and the Western world (or modern if you like) demonstrating real strength and solidarity. I'm not afraid of all these threats we face today, as long as we really face them, and deal with them realistically. Because really, this will accomplish nothing, while taking away something of real value, ephemeral though it may be. And perhaps, all things of real value to people are ephemeral.
But I'm not going to put up with it. Its time we realized that this is the only home we are likely to ever have, and it is our home. Might as well make ourselves comfortable. I see no reason to have to account for myself with fingerprints when I have done nothing to harm anyone.
What interests me is how Canada will deal with my situation. If I have no passport, how can I leave? And if I don't want to leave, how will they make me? The truth is, legal reasons hold no water. It cannot be denied that this planet is my home - Canada in particular. I'm not applying for citizenship elsewhere.
If you're interested, head over to Brian's site to see my post on there. I'll be interested to see what people think - even if its bad.
It's the split double long one....
Anyway Urban, I hope for your moral support if nothing else.
Anyone can think I am an idiot if they want, but let me put it to you this way: Imagine for a moment, that something you personally value more than anything, is being removed - even if no one else really understands what that thing is and why you value it - and the price for keeping it, is everything else. What would you do?
Casper, I'll have a look at that, but I don't see how it would avoid the fingerprint issue. I wouldn't visit a country that required fingerprints anyway, even though I would love a return visit to Japan, and wouldn't mind a trip to Montana for some fly-fishing, if nowhere else in the States. And thanks for your support, as always.
Have we not been on this planet for long enough to stop being afraid of our own shadows (literally)? |
Taking one's fingerprints does not equate to loss of freedom though.
As to how Canada will deal with your situation...no idea. They may ignore you or they may deport you. How will they make you, you ask? The same way they make other illegal aliens leave.
As for something I value more than anything else...I would weigh the value of that against the SUM total of everything else and decide which is worth more to me.
But again I don't see how giving fingerprints equates to a total loss of freedom...you are giving up only a small part of it and a very small part at that. Consider this. Your government ALREADY has a ton of information about you (believe or not) and fingerprints aren't going to dramatically increase that at all. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| They may ignore you or they may deport you. How will they make you, you ask? The same way they make other illegal aliens leave. |
They cannot deport him. Canada is his home. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| They may ignore you or they may deport you. How will they make you, you ask? The same way they make other illegal aliens leave. |
They cannot deport him. Canada is his home. |
You can NOT live in Canada AND renounce your citizenship. What is so hard to understand about that?
Here's the government website.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/renounce-eligibility.asp
this website clearly states what you need to do to be eligible. Among other things you MUST prove that you are going to be a citizen of another country AND you must not live in Canada.
So if one renounces his Canadian citizenship he'd have to leave. It would no longer be considered his home. Either that or his application would be denied (which is the most likely option) if he is living in Canada at the time and has no plans to become a citizen of another country.
Either road up, this discussion is moot. He said above that he's not applying for citizenship for another country. So any application to renounce will not be approved anyway. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| ^ Yeah, I know. The US says the same thing, but there have been a couple of cases of people who have managed it from within the country. I think it was either in Puerto Rico or an Indian reservation. Canada got anything like that? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| ^ Yeah, I know. The US says the same thing, but there have been a couple of cases of people who have managed it from within the country. I think it was either in Puerto Rico or an Indian reservation. Canada got anything like that? |
We do have reservations...but we really don't have anything like Puerto Rico as far as I know.
That is actually a good point...but he still needs to prove that he's going to be a citizen of another country. Canada won't let you be stateless apparently. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Here's my question. I'm American. I go to Japan or the EU on vacation. They fingerprint me. I return to America. Currently, my fingerprints are not on any domestic files. Later, I am suspected of having committed a crime. The authorities confiscate my passport, which happened to be on me, and notice my trip(s) to Japan and/or the EU. Will the Japanese or EU authorities release my fingerprints, and if so, under what circumstances? Probably not for a misdemeanor, but a felony, drunk-driving, murder, etc?
Because if the answer is always no, then I don't care. Collect my fingerprints. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
Here's my question. I'm American. I go to Japan or the EU on vacation. They fingerprint me. I return to America. Currently, my fingerprints are not on any domestic files. Later, I am suspected of having committed a crime. The authorities confiscate my passport, which happened to be on me, and notice my trip(s) to Japan and/or the EU. Will the Japanese or EU authorities release my fingerprints, and if so, under what circumstances? Probably not for a misdemeanor, but a felony, drunk-driving, murder, etc?
Because if the answer is always no, then I don't care. Collect my fingerprints. |
Japan and nearly all the members of the EU are members of Interpol. So is America.
Short answer, yes..for certain crimes. |
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Arthur Dent
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Location: Kochu whirld
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| Posted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Urban Myth wrote:
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Taking one's fingerprints does not equate to loss of freedom though.
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But it does to me. In addition, it is a retreat from protections to its own citizens, while (for those with this policy) an imposition on the citizens of other countries.
Urban Myth wrote:
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| They may ignore you or they may deport you. How will they make you, you ask? The same way they make other illegal aliens leave. |
Yes, I realize that. What I meant was how exactly will they deal with me when I refuse either option? They can't force another country to take me. And they can't force me - except physically - to leave, if I refuse to cooperate with that other country.
Urban Myth:
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I would weigh the value of that against the SUM total of everything else and decide which is worth more to me.
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That's what I said. It's also what I have done. Its also extremely obvious. I was trying to suggest to you that some things are values beyond measure.
Urban Myth wrote
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But again I don't see how giving fingerprints equates to a total loss of freedom...you are giving up only a small part of it and a very small part at that. Consider this. Your government ALREADY has a ton of information about you (believe or not) and fingerprints aren't going to dramatically increase that at all.
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Perhaps you misunderstood or just forgot about the original article - it was about a year ago after all, so not surprising. Canada will fingerprint foreigners, not its own citizens. Although, if applicants for citizenship are asked for fingerprints, then they will likely keep them for a time - depending on their status - again, over time. For some, particular agencies may retain the information if the individuals are from countries of significant risk, or if they have associations or a history which represents a similar risk.
It is not about the information they hold, and yes I know Ottawa has information about me. Everyone knows this. Canada will participate in a system which imposes the taking of fingerprints of non-citizens and in that way, remove protections of its own citizens who wish to travel abroad - many of them to countries who are our allies and trading partners.
This is a significant change of policy which has not been presented to us clearly as citizens. Its implications - foreign governments holding fingerprints of foreign nationals who are not criminals - for all democracies, are potentially far-reaching. This means as a tourist you are viewed as a potential criminal. My own parents have canceled their visit to the UK, partly for this reason. They are in their 80's. Does anyone seriously believe that they are a potential threat?
bacasper wrote:
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| ^ Yeah, I know. The US says the same thing, but there have been a couple of cases of people who have managed it from within the country. I think it was either in Puerto Rico or an Indian reservation. Canada got anything like that? |
I've never heard about that. I don't think we have anything like that. Of course, it's not surprising that a country will not look favorably on individuals living within their borders with no citizenship, but then I don't I take kindly to this proposed policy.
The Happy Warrior wrote:
| Quote: |
Here's my question. I'm American. I go to Japan or the EU on vacation. They fingerprint me. I return to America. Currently, my fingerprints are not on any domestic files. Later, I am suspected of having committed a crime. The authorities confiscate my passport, which happened to be on me, and notice my trip(s) to Japan and/or the EU. Will the Japanese or EU authorities release my fingerprints, and if so, under what circumstances? Probably not for a misdemeanor, but a felony, drunk-driving, murder, etc?
Because if the answer is always no, then I don't care. Collect my fingerprints. |
This is precisely the kind of problem that may arise. Thanks for bringing this up, by the way, and welcome to the discussion. However, there is one detail - at least one, in my admittedly non-professional opinion, with your proposed turn-of-events which may, and I emphasize may - not add up. If you are suspected of committing a crime, to the extent that they confiscate your passport, it seems likely, though not certain, that you will be under arrest. In which case they will take your fingerprints.
You do raise a good point though, as I said, which is the exchange of personal data between governments. Of course in certain situations this happens, and is a benefit to authorities and to citizens - potentially - of both or all nations. However, the taking of fingerprints of all who visit other nations by the foreign nations suggests to me a withdrawal of both responsibility and of protection of those citizens, all without a crime actually required to take place.
Also, if other nations hold your fingerprints, and it will vary from country to country as to how long and in what way they will hold this information, then this will always be a risk if you continue to travel to other countries which hold this policy.
Happy Warrior, if I may ask, which state are you from? I know certain states require fingerprints for drivers licenses, I believe Texas is one.
Urban Myth, thanks for that. I meant to bring that up as well. Interpol already acts an agency which offers protection to nations in this way. Why do we need more? |
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