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9 Myths about socialism
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
TANSTAAFL.

IHNIWTAMDY?
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Senior



Joined: 31 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
visitorq wrote:
TANSTAAFL.

IHNIWTAMDY?


I have no idea what these acronyms mean. Do you?
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senior wrote:
bacasper wrote:
visitorq wrote:
TANSTAAFL.

IHNIWTAMDY?


I have no idea what these acronyms mean. Do you?

Really? You guys should know it, it's pretty mainstream:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL
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The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if anyone supports Arizona's new immigration bill.

Quote:
The Arizona Senate passed one of the most stringent immigration laws in the country on Monday . . . . Passage of the law, which would, among other things, allow the authorities to demand proof of legal entry into the United States from anyone suspected of being in the country illegally, testified to the relative lack of political power of Arizona Latinos, and to the hardened views toward illegal immigration among Republican politicians both here and nationally.

People on both sides of the debate see the bill as a result of the failure of Congress to overhaul the immigration system, and predict that other states, as they have in the past, will be inspired by Arizona to consider similar legislation.


So the Latino vote is not very significant in Arizona. But its bizarre that national Republicans, like Arizona's own Senator John McCain, would endorse this bill in any way. I guess the Republicans don't value the large Hispanic voting demographic.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So the Latino vote is not very significant in Arizona. But its bizarre that national Republicans, like Arizona's own Senator John McCain, would endorse this bill in any way. I guess the Republicans don't value the large Hispanic voting demographic.


McCain pushed the immigration reform bill to almost no benefit to Republicans. Hispanics won't vote Republican, outside of the Cubans in Miami (and the younger Cubans are just hipster whites with a z in their name). The better electoral strategy for the Republicans, since we're in a cynical political culture, is to stop in bound migration of Hispanics (fewer Dem voters in the future) and frame it as appeasing the white majority.

It is also worth noting that Hispanics are not all that interested about immigration. And to the extent they are, the majority is opposed to more illegals and they're split on "comprehensive reform" when the word amnesty is used in the question.
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Arizona Senate passed one of the most stringent immigration laws in the country on Monday . . . . Passage of the law, which would, among other things, allow the authorities to demand proof of legal entry into the United States from anyone suspected of being in the country illegally, testified to the relative lack of political power of Arizona Latinos, and to the hardened views toward illegal immigration among Republican politicians both here and nationally.

People on both sides of the debate see the bill as a result of the failure of Congress to overhaul the immigration system, and predict that other states, as they have in the past, will be inspired by Arizona to consider similar legislation.

Sounds pretty unconstitutional.
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The Happy Warrior



Joined: 10 Feb 2010

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mises wrote:
Quote:
So the Latino vote is not very significant in Arizona. But its bizarre that national Republicans, like Arizona's own Senator John McCain, would endorse this bill in any way. I guess the Republicans don't value the large Hispanic voting demographic.


McCain pushed the immigration reform bill to almost no benefit to Republicans. Hispanics won't vote Republican, outside of the Cubans in Miami (and the younger Cubans are just hipster whites with a z in their name). The better electoral strategy for the Republicans, since we're in a cynical political culture, is to stop in bound migration of Hispanics (fewer Dem voters in the future) and frame it as appeasing the white majority.

It is also worth noting that Hispanics are not all that interested about immigration. And to the extent they are, the majority is opposed to more illegals and they're split on "comprehensive reform" when the word amnesty is used in the question.


Look at the bill. This isn't just about being tough on immigration. The bill demands proof of legal entry from anyone suspected of being in the country illegally. Suspected.

Who's going to get stopped by police? Not people with blond hair and blue eyes. Hispanics won't like this bill.
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mises



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I made no comment on the bill. I referenced your assertion that pushing immigration reform will help Republicans.
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Pluto



Joined: 19 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electorally, this will most likely be beneficial to Republicans.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bacasper wrote:
visitorq wrote:
TANSTAAFL.

IHNIWTAMDY?




I Have No Idea What This Actually Means. Do You?


There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
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Jandar



Joined: 11 Jun 2008

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Socialism

I am using the internet at the library today.

My home is protected by a volunteer fire department.

The kids in my neighborhood are in school.

I drove on a highway to get here it was paved.

I ate at least one product containing subsidized corn today.

I visited a national park on my vacation.

So what's wrong with that?
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Adventurer



Joined: 28 Jan 2006

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be something done to restrict illegal immigration via the border and enforcement. What should be done about illegal immigration? I don't dislike illegal immigrants. Many work very hard and are good people, but in many cases their children don't assimilate very well in the larger culture due to the huge influx of Mexicans who, in too many cases, are illegal. There are many legal Mexicans, of course. Should there be amnesty? Perhaps, there should be. If that's done their should be clear legislation regarding those who are here illegaly after that date and those who give them housing and services in order to discourage illegal immigration. Illegal immigration is unfair to legal immigrants.

As far as socialism of the Western European variety, Jandar is correct that we have paved roads, public schools, and fire departments and in a small sense such communitarian things are socialistic in nature. Socialism entails communitarian ideas. If you have communism, however, it entails a command economy, but not your run of the mill socialist systems. It's a question of degrees.

Let's look at health care. In the United States, if you have health insurance make sure you do not get very ill, get breast cancer, or get pregnant. You may get dropped. No, it's not misogyny. It's simply profit making mixed with medical care. One woman who was a businesswoman
became so poor after she got dropped. Many business people have opposed universal health care, but too many overestimate the willingness of insurance companies to cover them.

I think the government should build more public hospitals in major cities to put pressure on the insurance companies, to hold them more accountable. When the public sector is too weak vis-a-vis the private sector, then the extremely wealthy through various institutions can go against the public good.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adventurer wrote:
Illegal immigration is unfair to legal immigrants.


Is illegal immigration really unfair to legal immigrants? Legal immigrants enjoy social and legal protections that illegal immigrants don't. Any job they're working surely pays more. They can easily and safely bring their families here if they wish. It seems to me that legal immigrants are in an entirely different class.
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Zilong



Joined: 17 Apr 2010
Location: Broseidon's Lair

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fox wrote:
Adventurer wrote:
Illegal immigration is unfair to legal immigrants.


Is illegal immigration really unfair to legal immigrants? Legal immigrants enjoy social and legal protections that illegal immigrants don't. Any job they're working surely pays more. They can easily and safely bring their families here if they wish. It seems to me that legal immigrants are in an entirely different class.


Once they actually are allowed in the country, maybe.
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Fox



Joined: 04 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zilong wrote:
Fox wrote:
Adventurer wrote:
Illegal immigration is unfair to legal immigrants.


Is illegal immigration really unfair to legal immigrants? Legal immigrants enjoy social and legal protections that illegal immigrants don't. Any job they're working surely pays more. They can easily and safely bring their families here if they wish. It seems to me that legal immigrants are in an entirely different class.


Once they actually are allowed in the country, maybe.


If they aren't in the country, they aren't legal immigrants yet.
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