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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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 Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, I see you read that lame Facebook meme.
[quote="Jandar"]On Socialism
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| I am using the internet at the library today. |
Congratulations. Most people don't have a problem with libraries.
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| My home is protected by a volunteer fire department. |
How is that socialism?
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The kids in my neighborhood are in school. |
Public schools are one of the great modern atrocities. They are producing a generation of dullards.
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| I drove on a highway to get here it was paved. |
We wouldn't have transport unless the govt built it? Unlikely.
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| I ate at least one product containing subsidized corn today. |
You're kidding right.
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| I visited a national park on my vacation. |
Congratulations.
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So what's wrong with that?
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Plenty.
I'm writing this on a Dell computer. I'm wearing Levis jeans. I'm going to ring my mom on an iphone. I ate Australian steak for dinner.
So, what? |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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Whenever I hear Americans talk about socialism, I kind of tune out, as I've come to realise that what they hysterically view as 'socialism' is what Europeans would consider 'mixed economy.'
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:01 pm Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
Not looking down on you, mate. Just amused at the American reaction to the word 'socialism.' One might as well say 'paedophilia' - it gets very much the same reaction.  |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
Not looking down on you, mate. Just amused at the American reaction to the word 'socialism.' One might as well say 'paedophilia' - it gets very much the same reaction. |
Probably the same reaction you have to "capitalism" or "free markets". What is your point? |
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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
Not looking down on you, mate. Just amused at the American reaction to the word 'socialism.' One might as well say 'paedophilia' - it gets very much the same reaction. |
Probably the same reaction you have to "capitalism" or "free markets". What is your point? |
Europeans have no problem with "capitalism" and don't get over excited by "free markets." Our markets are likely as 'free' as yours, and you don't have an entirely 'free' market anyway - don't kid yourself. Just by what you've written I can see you are entirely ignorant of economics outside your national borders (and probably within them too). |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
Not looking down on you, mate. Just amused at the American reaction to the word 'socialism.' One might as well say 'paedophilia' - it gets very much the same reaction. |
Probably the same reaction you have to "capitalism" or "free markets". What is your point? |
Europeans have no problem with "capitalism" and don't get over excited by "free markets." Our markets are likely as 'free' as yours, and you don't have an entirely 'free' market anyway - don't kid yourself. Just by what you've written I can see you are entirely ignorant of economics outside your national borders (and probably within them too). |
Europeans absolutely do have a problem with "capitalism" (or what they ignorantly consider to be capitalism a la what they see in the preposterous Micheal Moore films they love so much). For example, polls in France show that the vast majority of people have negative sentiments towards capitalism.
http://www.uptodatefrance.eu/2010/04/19/most-french-people-view-capitalism-negatively-poll-says/
I think the other poster was correct in stating that you just think America should be more like Europe. This is probably because you think the European system is superior. Oh well, you're entitled to your opinion, but it actually holds no water at all. I could just as easily point out that most of our problems, including poverty and unequal wealth distribution are a result of the US adopting European institutions like central banking. This is why we went from the most prosperous country on earth to one that is bankrupt (just like Europe is). |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Interested wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Interested wrote: |
It's a shame that so many ordinary Americans have such a knee-jerk reaction to the word, as it prevents some good social provisions from being put in place - and it's to their own detriment as a society. |
Yes, its such a shame more Americans aren't more like Europeans.
I grew up on the East Coast (of the States), so I understand where this European condescension comes from. Its the same way East Coasters look down on Midwesterners. |
Not looking down on you, mate. Just amused at the American reaction to the word 'socialism.' One might as well say 'paedophilia' - it gets very much the same reaction. |
Probably the same reaction you have to "capitalism" or "free markets". What is your point? |
Europeans have no problem with "capitalism" and don't get over excited by "free markets." Our markets are likely as 'free' as yours, and you don't have an entirely 'free' market anyway - don't kid yourself. Just by what you've written I can see you are entirely ignorant of economics outside your national borders (and probably within them too). |
Good grief. Condescend much?
Who are "ours" and "yours". Free markets exist almost no where on the planet. If you read this board at all, you would know that this is a matter of almost universal consensus.
Why not display a knowledge of econ yourself, before making assumptions about other peoples ignorance. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| For #1: Immigration enforcement would still be necessary, wouldn't it? I mean, naturalizing the current illegal immigrants doesn't mean we should turn a blind-eye to our borders. And considering we have millions of illegal, undocumented people living in our country currently, I would say we probably need more immigration enforcement, not less. |
I don't think so. Give people an accessible path to be here legitimately and they're going to take it. People don't break the law for the Hell of it, after all. |
I wasn't referring to migrant workers. There are plenty of bad elements we should be concerned about keeping out of our country (gangs, weapons, drugs*, etc) which we currently have a serious problem with because our borders are so permeable.
*This really should be a non-issue, but because of our ridiculous drug laws, we get poorly cut drugs like heroine, coke, etc from over the border. I would also like to list that terrible Mexican brown schwag as one of the worst atrocities perpetuated on Americans in recent history. 
| Fox wrote: |
| That's a complicated question, but I'd expect -- in an average year from a historic perspective -- the average immigrant laborer would pay relatively little Federal income tax, a varying amount of State income tax (depending on where they lived) |
I cut out everything not related to income tax.
Ya know, I'll be honest; most of what I've said has been almost pure speculation based on personal experience, and perhaps that's not fair. I hail from the South (specifically Memphis), and almost every person of low economic status that I've met has been a complete drain on society (this unfortunately includes a few relatives). They collect as much as possible and contribute as little as possible, and the government seems to encourage them to do so. I know for a fact that those worthless relatives and other acquaintances of mine pay close to nothing in income taxes (my ex-sister-in-law actually pays nothing and yet still collects a tax return). Maybe these potentially naturalized immigrants will fall under different tax codes, but it seems unlikely. I will concede the point, though, if someone sets me straight.
| Fox wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| But that would then probably be balanced by the increase tax-supported services dedicated to poverty-stricken individuals... |
What in particular did you have in mind? |
Any number of welfare services available to low-income individuals, minorities, and low-income minorities. Food stamps, rent subsidies, unemployment benefits, etc. |
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