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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: His-Panic |
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This article relates to a couple of discussions (crime and immigration) going on around here:
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/
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His-Panic
Talk TV sensationalists and axe-grinding ideologues have fallen for a myth of immigrant lawlessness.
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Furthermore, if we consider the overall list of American cities, it is easy to find a number of those with sizable Hispanic populations�30, 40, 50 percent or more Hispanic�that have crime rates below our white urban average. If Hispanic crime rates were much higher than those for whites, this would seem very unlikely.
Similar evidence emerges if we restrict our analysis to major cities of half a million people or more and compare the average crime rates for the five most heavily Hispanic cities�Albuquerque, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Antonio, and El Paso�to the those of the five whitest�Oklahoma City, Columbus, Indianapolis, Seattle, and Portland. This time, the more Hispanic cities are the ones with the lower crime rates�10 percent below the white cities in homicide and 15 percent lower in violent crime. A particularly remarkable result is that gigantic Los Angeles�50 percent Hispanic and frequently perceived as a dangerous urban hellhole�has violent crime rates close to those of Portland, Oregon, the whitest major city in the nation at 74 percent.
Here�s a final example, much closer to home. Consider two large and comparable American cities�San Jose, California and Seattle, Washington. Both are located on the West Coast, are overwhelmingly suburban and generally affluent, earn their living from the technology industry, are politically liberal, and have small black populations. Seattle is one of the whitest cities in America at 70 percent, with Asians being the largest minority; Hispanics number only 5 percent. By contrast, San Jose is over 50 percent larger in size and although mostly white and Asian, is one-third Hispanic, with a large number of impoverished illegal immigrants. Seattle�s crime rate is indeed low, but the crime rate in San Jose is actually much lower: one-third lower for homicide or violent crime in general and with less than half the robbery rate. In fact, none of the most heavily white major cities in America have crime rates anywhere near as low as one-third Hispanic San Jose.
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We must bear in mind that most Hispanics are still of very recent immigrant origins and thus are considerably poorer than the average American. There actually does exist a connection between poverty and crime, even if liberals make such a claim, and since today�s Hispanic population has roughly the same crime rate as far more affluent whites, there is every reason to expect that this crime rate will drop further as Hispanics continue to move up the economic ladder. As the American Enterprise Institute�s Douglas Besharov pointed out in an important but insufficiently noticed October 2007 New York Times column, the last decade or two have seen an extremely rapid economic advance for most of America�s Hispanic population. 10 This rise may be connected with the simultaneous and unexpectedly rapid drop in urban crime rates throughout the country.
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The whole article is worth a read. |
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kotakji
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting article. I was a bit surprised at first. However, looking closer at the numbers, I dont see any statistically reliable patterns. For example, here's the murder rates for those aforementioned cities per 100k.
Dallas 13.3
Los Angeles 10.0
San Antonio 8.6
Albuquerque 7.2
El Paso 2.8
Columbus 14.5
Indianapolis 14.1
Oklahoma City 10.3
Seattle 4.8
Portland 4.7
Too much variation to be useful. The El Paso stat is particularly questionable considering the city across the fence has a murder rate three times higher than any US city. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Fun article.
Now I'm going to poke at it some.
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| Another set of obvious outliers are the states of the Northeast, primarily the New York/New England region, in which relative Hispanic imprisonment rates generally run two to three times higher than the national Hispanic average, as shown in Chart 2. These exceptionally high Hispanic incarceration rates probably reflect the considerable social and economic difficulties long experienced by the large Puerto Rican and Dominican communities that have settled in that region. |
Maybe the discrepancy can be laid at the feet of the artificial construct of 'Hispanic.' Hispanic is a very problematic classification, for a number of reasons.
First of all, who is white and who is a non-white Hispanic?
I have a friend who is Colombian-American. He naturalized while young, but his older siblings had to go through the naturalization process to get their American citizenship. He's thoroughly European in blood, and the only thing that reminds you of his ancestry is his fluent Spanish.
Meanwhile, other Hispanics have quite mixed blood: they are some iteration of Native, European, and African ancestry. But whereas Tiger Woods is just Tiger Woods, they are simply classified as Hispanic. Why? Geographic and historical origin, it seems.
And that leads to the second problem. Although there are definitely cultural similarities between various South and Central American countries, and an undeniable common origin (hence Hispanic, Brazilians are not Hispanic, but Latino), these countries are not the same. Just ask the Dominicans about their 'American' cousins, the Puerto Ricans. As students of Chinese-Korean-Japanese relations, we should be familiar with this false internecine rivalry (false because the unity is our construct). We see them as alike, but that's certainly not what they see, at least not until we see them as such.
The third problem the author of the article admitted. Given that Hispanic is a construct, and moreso than any other race, how can we hope for reliable statistics? We can't, it appears. This author divines his crime rates by taking five 'white' cities and putting them against five 'Hispanic cities, like so:
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The five whitest cities in America: Colorado Springs, Colorado; Fort Wayne, Indiana; Portland, Oregon; Lexington, Kentucky; and Lincoln, Nebraska. These cities� populations average 76 percent white, 9 percent Hispanic, and 8 percent black.
The five most Hispanic cities in America: Corpus Christi, Texas; San Antonio, Texas; Miami, Florida; Santa Ana, California; and El Paso, Texas. Together they total over 3 million in population, averaging 68 percent Hispanic, 22 percent white, and 6 percent black.
Overall, the crime rates for these most heavily Hispanic cities are generally low, with violent crime 10 percent below the national urban average and the homicide rate 40 percent lower. On the other hand, the crime rates [of the Hispanic set] are still well above those of the white cities we considered above. In fact, the white homicide and violent crime rates are almost one-third lower. This provides some evidence for a higher Hispanic crime rate. |
Right. So it turns out that we don't really know what the 'Hispanic' crime rate is. Although the author anchors his rebuttal to his own admission above on LA demographics, its not the 'powerful refutation' he trumpets to the perception that Hispanic crime is higher than white crime.
That being said, I don't think this article helps those alleging higher crime rates for Hispanics any. On the contrary, it reveals all the problems and pitfalls with trying to determine what a 'Hispanic crime rate' might even be. And the author is right, the burden of proof is on those making the allegations. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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In the south west Hispanic = Mexican. Chicago too. In NYC it will be mostly PR's and Mexicans. Miami is Cubans and white South Americans. Dominicans too. It isn't all that useful a designation.
In regards to LA, San Antonio, Dallas and San Jose the Hispanics will largely be Mexican. America isn't becoming more Hispanic on balance. It is becoming more Mexican. The crime rates of cities with lots of Mexicans suggests that outcome might actually make those cities safer. El Paso is really safe. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kotakji wrote: |
Interesting article. I was a bit surprised at first. However, looking closer at the numbers, I dont see any statistically reliable patterns. For example, here's the murder rates for those aforementioned cities per 100k.
Dallas 13.3
Los Angeles 10.0
San Antonio 8.6
Albuquerque 7.2
El Paso 2.8
Columbus 14.5
Indianapolis 14.1
Oklahoma City 10.3
Seattle 4.8
Portland 4.7
Too much variation to be useful. The El Paso stat is particularly questionable considering the city across the fence has a murder rate three times higher than any US city. |
I think you'll have to control for blacks. Miami is largely Hispanic and less than 10% Anglo white but has a high crime rate... |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| In the south west Hispanic = Mexican. Chicago too. In NYC it will be mostly PR's and Mexicans. Miami is Cubans and white South Americans. Dominicans too. It isn't all that useful a designation. |
There are relatively few Mexicans in NYC, and they have only been there in the last couple of decades. There are way more Dominicans. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| In the south west Hispanic = Mexican. Chicago too. In NYC it will be mostly PR's and Mexicans. Miami is Cubans and white South Americans. Dominicans too. It isn't all that useful a designation. |
There are relatively few Mexicans in NYC, and they have only been there in the last couple of decades. There are way more Dominicans. |
My bad. Though it is changing.
http://vivirlatino.com/2009/01/02/in-15-years-mexicans-will-be-largest-latino-group-in-nyc.php |
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Enrico Palazzo
Mod Team
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Someone reported that His-Panic is derogatory. We try to take a fair line with the TOS. I read the intent behind the words. Someone was using that for political and literary purposes and is not anti-Mexican or Hispanic, but, thank you, for bringing that to our attention. However, racial slurs or slurs against religious groups are not acceptable, and we examine any such possible slur when we can.
Thank you; carry on... |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ^ oh please. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| In the south west Hispanic = Mexican. Chicago too. In NYC it will be mostly PR's and Mexicans. Miami is Cubans and white South Americans. Dominicans too. It isn't all that useful a designation. |
There are relatively few Mexicans in NYC, and they have only been there in the last couple of decades. There are way more Dominicans. |
Yes, there is a serious lack of quality mexican food in NYC (or anywhere on the East Coast for that matter). |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah there is such variation in the Hispanic community. In the Miami area there are segments of the hispanic poulation that are second and third generation U.s. citizens. Recent immigrant crime statistics would be much different I think. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| In the south west Hispanic = Mexican. Chicago too. In NYC it will be mostly PR's and Mexicans. Miami is Cubans and white South Americans. Dominicans too. It isn't all that useful a designation. |
There are relatively few Mexicans in NYC, and they have only been there in the last couple of decades. There are way more Dominicans. |
Yes, there is a serious lack of quality mexican food in NYC (or anywhere on the East Coast for that matter). |
Tell me about it! And of the few there are, almost none has chilaquiles. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
| In the Miami area there are segments of the hispanic poulation that are second and third generation U.s. citizens. |
And in a big chunk of the southwest and CA this is the case as well. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:26 am Post subject: His-Panic in Arizona |
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The Economist on the Arizona Immigration Law
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Illegal immigration is a federal crime. Mr Pearce�s law, however, would also make it a state crime and would require the police, as opposed to federal agents, to make arrests and check the immigration status of individuals who look suspicious to them. Citizens who think their cops are not vigilant enough would be encouraged to sue their cities or counties, and no city or county may remain a �sanctuary� where this law is not enforced. |
Radical. |
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kcs0001
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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For U.S. Federal stats (the FBI reports) Hispanics (non-black) are counted as white when compililing "hate crime" offender data, but as Hispanic when compiling the victim data. Huh, why would they do that? Since this is a PC hot potato, I'm not sure if the FEDs still disclose the data, but they did until 2005 or so. The actual stats used to be available from FBI.gov, but I looked earlier and apparently this data has been deleted
Last edited by kcs0001 on Wed Apr 28, 2010 4:31 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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