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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I take it from your post, you think many of them whine when they have lots of opportunity. |
Well, I'm not going to talk about who is or isn't whining, but the fact is that sufficient opportunity exists. Blacks aren't being kept down by external forces. External forces are offering blacks a step up.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| However, America is segregated. They are often raised in neighborhoods and that's what many of them know. There is a lot of culture of failure, collective low self-esteem. |
I agree, I've said this before. However, this doesn't result in a lack of opportunity, just in a lack of willingness to accept opportunity. More importantly, it's purely self-imposed. Outsiders cannot change the culture in question, no matter what we do. However, an individual black person can choose to reject said culture and embrace the many opportunities he has availible to him. That, in my eyes, is the crucial distinction between blacks in America, and Afghanis in Afghanistan. Even if an Afghani realizes their culture isn't working so well, there's precious little he can do about it without leaving the country. A black who decides he doesn't want to live by the values of black culture has abundant opportunities in his own country. |
I do believe people are responsible for their actions, but I also believe that simply saying that individual black people are responsible for changing so the culture would change to where are the less drop out, less young men involved in crime, removes the larger society, does it not?
Affirmative action was used by the larger society to try to address the legacy of racism, and it helped somewhat. It tended to help more white females probably. What can we do to reach out to people of color and poor whites? What can we do to make them feel included? How do we secure and protect our schools? That's part of the problem. We have a situation where black people die, and we act like they never died or lived.
True, individuals are responsible for their actions, but what responsibility do we have as a society?
Yes, in Afghanistan, they can't go anywhere to improve in their coutry, generally speaking. If an African American leaves the inner city and gets an education, he will do well, but there is often low achievement, and not this aiming high. The low self-esteem issue on a cultural level is not my fault or your fault and nor is the high crime rate, but if I could contribute to reversing things for the positive, I would, because people matter. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| I do believe people are responsible for their actions, but I also believe that simply saying that individual black people are responsible for changing so the culture would change to where are the less drop out, less young men involved in crime, removes the larger society, does it not? |
I would say individual black people changing is the only way to change black culture. Until or unless more of them start standing up and saying, "This is ridiculous, it's time for a change," it won't happen. All outsiders can do is ensure there are opportunities waiting for the people who want them, and in America, there are plenty.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| What can we do to reach out to people of color and poor whites? What can we do to make them feel included? |
Nothing, because we aren't discluding them. They're discluding themselves. It will work itself out in time.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| True, individuals are responsible for their actions, but what responsibility do we have as a society? |
The responsibility to ensure reasonable opportunity for individuals that want to embrace it. I think our society is doing a fine job of that.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| The low self-esteem issue on a cultural level is not my fault or your fault and nor is the high crime rate, but if I could contribute to reversing things for the positive, I would, because people matter. |
So would I, but we can't. Hell, the last time I had a conversation about this on here, kabrams freaked out at me. That's the kind of resistance we're looking at here, and that's from an educated woman; it's only worse from people genuinely immersed in it. Any attempt to engage on the matter is just met with scorn. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| travel zen wrote: |
So weird 
Your point is almost Nazi-like. Blacks (Africans?) are genetically prone to violence. They are violent, they are black. Blacks are violent.
That's all you seem to say. How bizarre.
History of America ? Simply brutal. We can agree. Even the British were less brutal and racialized. But has things changed? The laws, the attitudes, the social aspect of what started 400 years ago?
Do you know the history? How far has America changed? A black President is nice, but it doesn't mean America has changed 100%?
Your pounding on black people and 'statistics' that I would never believe, no matter what sketchy source, is pretty blatant buddy. I know too many people who would say the same things you say about Arabs, or Chinese, or Irish. They are just scared, or jealous or something. Don't be afraid of black people..some would remind you of your mother, father or best friend. Seriously. |
Emotional. Hysterical. Irrational. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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There's no doubt that statistically AA's commit more crime, but AA is a group consisting of many people, I would say a substantial majority, that has committed no crime at all.
I know (or guess) that Kabrams would be here arguing the same point, but she's embittered from doing so on this board. Anger against blacks as a collective just doesn't make any sense. You can't diffuse and distribute the anger which should be localized on some black youths across the spectrum of the entire African-American community.
P.S. So-called 'Black culture' is such a stupid construct of the media |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Us whiteys are guilty!
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You can't diffuse and distribute the anger which should be localized on some black youths across the spectrum of the entire African-American community.
P.S. So-called 'Black culture' is such a stupid construct of the media |
Agreed. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Go find the crime stats by race. The amount of violence from AA's is astonishing. It is also many factors more likely for a black to harm a white than a white to harm a black. It is likely the case that on aggregate whites commit more violence because more of them exist. To the extent that whites are upset with blacks it is almost entirely due to black behavior. Only around 10% of whites think blacks inferior (more blacks hold that belief).
http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2010/03/blacks-give-reasons-for-black-poverty.html
Stories like this are incredibly frequent in local papers in the US:
http://www.suntimes.com/news/24-7/2193018,bucktown-chicago-baseball-bat-042310.article
Bizarre, incredible violence.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_mBasfSNyWbg/R_p6_jWHRLI/AAAAAAAAA0Y/TJsGLDJkfYM/S1600-R/Homicide+Offenders+by+Race+1976-2005.bmp
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2007-04-02hm.html
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| Though blacks, 24 percent of New York City�s population, committed 68.5 percent of all murders, rapes, robberies, and assaults in the city |
After 9/11 I was all about discussing "why do they hate us". I never had any opposition to an examination of root causes for their actions. That extends to this. Why are whites, to the extent they are, upset with blacks? Crime. That's it. There are a wide variety of reasons for why the crime rate is what it is. Acknowledging that there are root causes for the opinions of whites/Asians/Hispanics et al isn't racist. Nor is it racist to find whites frustrated at the little Baghdad's sprinkled throughout the US. We all know about the history, the slavery and injustice. That doesn't change the reality of diminished safety.
And it isn't just poverty. Poor Hispanics and Asians (and whites) don't commit near the level of crime that poor blacks commit.
http://www.amconmag.com/article/2010/mar/01/00022/ |
I'd be curious to see if those numbers were the same between Canada and the US. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Mise is only looking at the statistics. As for your experience , you live in lily white Toronto No one in claiming that AA's are genetically prone to violence. Not even AFRican Americans would argue against the fact that their is a lot of violence in their communities. It is an ongoing national tradgedy! I lived in Lauderdale Lakes , near Miami predominately a Hatian immigrant area. Low crime, fairly good standard of living. Much different than the AReas where American born people of African descent live. It is cultural not genetic. it is not racist to look at statistics! |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Travel Zen wrote " The British were less racialized". What ? Who do you think brought african slaves to what would become the U.S? I am not slamming Toronto or Canada. But your experiences growing up in a predominately white city in a predominately white country are much much different than many people who grew up in predominately black cities. For years I watched Lewis Farrakhan on community televeison in Atlanta, he ahd a regular show on on Wednesday nights. If a white person had blasted the black community the way Farrakhan blasted it, he would have been branded a klansman. He would point out that some of African American culture and behavior fed the hate and fear. Are there historical reasons behind the behiors, sure , everyone know that. But pretending that there is not a high rate of crime and violence in the African American community is dishonest and does not help the problem. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| About Toronto. It isn't "lilly white". It is ethnically diverse. And gun crime there is dominated by Jamaican and other Caribbean blacks, who are a tiny minority. Same with Edmonton, where Somali immigrants were fully half of all murders in 2008. The Edmonton Somali "community" was about 12k in a city of 900k. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyways, I can understand (and agree with) with desire to look to why a situation is how it is. But to deny a situation exists or to insist that it isn't discussed is completely unacceptable. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Compared to Atalanta ,or Baltimore or Dtroit or Memphis or other American cities , it has a very small black population. Lily white was too strong a statement. Sorry about that. I went to high school in Atanta, about 75% African American, a lot of places seem lilywhite to me. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| the idea that african americans are grouped in segregated neighbor hoods is a little outdated. 60% of married African americans own a home. But the institution of marriage is just about dead in the African american community. The writer Walter Mosley an African american has dismissed claims that blacks are still held back by segregation. Like many many prominent African Americans he looks at the failure of black leadership. the African American community is over represented in congress. there is a higher percentage of blacks in congress than in the ggeneral population. Which would suggest that whites voted for them. Few are willing to challenge behaviors or even discuss the problem of crime in their communities. there is a devide in the community, there is a large growing african american middleclass and then there are those who ae left behind or perhaps dont want to change. Not talking about it, pretending there isnt a problem , is mere lcondesion and implies that "they" cant help it. |
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