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| Are you able to give out any grade you see fit? |
| Yes, I have the power |
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56% |
[ 13 ] |
| Sometimes, so long as it pleases everyone |
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30% |
[ 7 ] |
| Not a chance, my school tells me what to do and I do it |
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13% |
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| Total Votes : 23 |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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 Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
Assigning a student an F grade is one thing; holding them back a year is something else entirely. Children who don't perform well should be given a failing grade, so that their parents recognize the child is struggling with a given subject and can take appropriate action. Holding a child back on the other hand seem to me to be something that could do substantially harm to a child emotionally without providing much reciprocal benefit. If a child fails in a single subject, their parents should be getting them tutoring in that subject to compensate. If a child fails in every subject, then they probably shouldn't be in a normal classroom anyway, because they either have incredibly severe emotional problems or are mentally impaired.
If a kid fails math, their parents need to get them extra math help. If a kid fails everything, they probably need an entirely different classroom environment. In neither case does it seem that holding them back would be the solution, unless your goal is to stigmatize them for the rest of their education. |
To be perfectly honest, I was held back a year in kindergarten. I was never emotionally traumatized for that. As for nonschool related things in life, I suppose that I have suffered some emotional trauma as we all have, but guess what? These things have made me a stronger person and ultimately a more successful person. Of course, mind you, I do not advocate the idea of deliberately causing emotional trauma to children. However, I do think that sheltering children from the consequences of their failure, does more harm than good in the long run. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeonmunka wrote: |
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| Children who don't perform well should be given a failing grade, so that their parents recognize the child is struggling with a given subject and can take appropriate action |
I get constant feedback about my children's progress - I sit with them at night and do their homework with them.
I think the thing about parents worrying about feeding their kids is a non-excuse. There is always one hour can spend with your kids.
Even if you are in a homeless shelter, you can afford one hour to organize your kids schoolwork before lightsout.
There will be no failure when parents (or a parent - how damned ridiculous) spend quality time with their kids. |
What you say doesn't reflect the reality of it though. The reality is, after working 1-2 crappy jobs, some parents just want to be left alone. You are right, actually doing some parenting would go a long way to ensure that children are not left behind.
Another fact that is often over looked is many parents themselves have low scholarship skills, or that they were perhaps the child failed when they were in school. They do not know how to set an example or help their children because their parents never did it with them. What is happening now in Canada is school boards are operating special classes to help parents learn what they need to do in order to help their children succeed at school.
To those of us on this board, we are university educated and thus have a leg up on how to study or help our children with their studies. When my daughter was in SK, she was the only one in her class that could already read and do math (this is in Canada). Most of the parents of her classmates were blue collar, and did not have a university degree. (I was in a blue collar town in a blue collar neighborhood.) They believe that the school is responsible for teaching all of those things rather than parents. Schools can only do so much. Those parents didn't strike me as not wanting to spend time with their children though or wanting to help them out. Most of those kids were involved in a lot of extra-curricular activities. I think it falls back again to parents not knowing how to help out their children. Hopefully the school sponsored classes that Ontario has will be something school boards all over adopt. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Konglishman wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
Assigning a student an F grade is one thing; holding them back a year is something else entirely. Children who don't perform well should be given a failing grade, so that their parents recognize the child is struggling with a given subject and can take appropriate action. Holding a child back on the other hand seem to me to be something that could do substantially harm to a child emotionally without providing much reciprocal benefit. If a child fails in a single subject, their parents should be getting them tutoring in that subject to compensate. If a child fails in every subject, then they probably shouldn't be in a normal classroom anyway, because they either have incredibly severe emotional problems or are mentally impaired.
If a kid fails math, their parents need to get them extra math help. If a kid fails everything, they probably need an entirely different classroom environment. In neither case does it seem that holding them back would be the solution, unless your goal is to stigmatize them for the rest of their education. |
To be perfectly honest, I was held back a year in kindergarten. I was never emotionally traumatized for that. |
I don't take any particular issue with children being held back a year in kindergarten; it's not like they'd really understand what was happening, and it doesn't involve being held back while the classmates you've spent years learning alongside progress. Kindergarten is different.
| Konglishman wrote: |
| However, I do think that sheltering children from the consequences of their failure, does more harm than good in the long run. |
I'm not suggesting sheltering children from consequences. The consequences of something like getting an F in math, though, should be being given more help at math. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| What you say doesn't reflect the reality of it though. The reality is, after working 1-2 crappy jobs, some parents just want to be left alone. |
This is something that no school system can be realistically expected to overcome. It's also the real problem behind America's educational results. If a parent just wants to be left alone, they need to not have children in the first place. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
| What you say doesn't reflect the reality of it though. The reality is, after working 1-2 crappy jobs, some parents just want to be left alone. |
This is something that no school system can be realistically expected to overcome. It's also the real problem behind America's educational results. If a parent just wants to be left alone, they need to not have children in the first place. |
I agree 100%. |
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tgrear2008
Joined: 14 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Just passing the students along to the next grade is the reason why they get to middle school or high school and can barely function. At that point they are at risk for dropping out. If the United States wants to be competitive with the world in academics, it needs to have higher standards. We should retain at least 20 students each year where I'm teaching. The reality is we retain 3 or 4, and the others become a problem for someone else.
They end up working menial jobs. And then they ask me questions like my custodian asked me today "How many states we got, 52? 53?"
I was polite and casually told him 50. I didn't want to embarrass him, he's a cool guy. A few people you want on your side is the secretary, librarian, and custodian. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| tgrear2008 wrote: |
| Just passing the students along to the next grade is the reason why they get to middle school or high school and can barely function. |
No, parents not taking an interest is the reason why they get to middle or high school and can barely function. There's a limit to how much service a school can reasonably provide for any given student.
| tgrear2008 wrote: |
| If the United States wants to be competitive with the world in academics, it needs to have higher standards. |
If the United States wants to be competitive with the world in academics, parents need to stop being lazy losers and get involved in their childrens academic progress. Holding more children back isn't going to make the United States more academically competitive, it's just going to result in pissing away more educational resources on families that aren't committed to education.
| tgrear2008 wrote: |
| They end up working menial jobs. |
So what? Unfortunately, someone has to, and I for one don't look down on people working in menial positions. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:33 am Post subject: |
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I believe there should be a limit to the number of times a student can prevented from moving on normally with the rest of his classmates, but it shouldn't be capped at zero. I currently teach at a technical high school, and I've spent the last few months teaching 10th graders phonics. Phonics, in %$&#ing high school, and most of my students still can't read a simple sentence. Yes, their parents (or, as is the case with most of my students, the lack of parents) have failed them and continue to do so, but so has the government by testing them for a skillset and then allowing them to advance regardless of the results.
Now, does this mean that they should be forced to repeat the same material with a younger group of 'normal' classmates? In some cases, yes, but I think many of these students simply need to be moved to a different educational environment with different standards and different rewards. A remedial school and a regular school should not be issuing equivalent diplomas, and a student that has failed in everything but managed to show up for class every day should not be given a diploma equivalent to a student who has succeeded in all areas.
This is getting a bit off-topic, but the school I teach at never fails any students. So long as their behavior doesn't turn violent and they show up the minimum number of days, they will all receive a diploma. And from what I hear, that's happening to many schools back in the states, too. That's complete and utter bull@#$%. A high school diploma should be a certificate of achievement, not a certificate of participation. |
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kiknkorea
Joined: 16 May 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| A high school diploma should be a certificate of achievement, not a certificate of participation. |
Exactly! |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| This is getting a bit off-topic, but the school I teach at never fails any students. So long as their behavior doesn't turn violent and they show up the minimum number of days, they will all receive a diploma. And from what I hear, that's happening to many schools back in the states, too. That's complete and utter bull@#$%. A high school diploma should be a certificate of achievement, not a certificate of participation. |
I should note that although I'm against holding students back, I do feel failure at the high school level should result in denial of a high school diploma. You're right, it should be a certificate of achievement. |
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johnyv40
Joined: 19 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2010 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| as many of us agree the education system needs a much needed overhaul. The problem is both the parents fault and the teachers fault. But each side can only control or do so much without the student willing to do something in return. |
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