Korean Job Discussion Forums

[oldfatfarang]

I need some help with these sentences, please.
(a) Which relative adverb should be left out?
(b) Which grammar rules explain why?

Any help appreciated. Thanks.

(1) This is the church where Mina goes.
This sounds clumsy and incomplete. Shouldn't it be:
- This is the church where Mina goes (to/attends)?
- This is the church Mina goes (to/attends.)

(2) This is the church that Mina goes.
Seems an incomplete sentence. Shouldn't it be:
- This is the church that Mina goes (to/attends.)
- This is the church Mina (goes to/attends.)

(3) Now is the time when you have to say the truth.

Seems clumsy. Which is better?
- Now is the time you have to say the truth.
- Now is when you have to say the truth.

Also, wouldn't the sentence be better with: tell the truth (collocation)?

(4) That's the reason why he was late.
- That's the reason he was late.
- That's why he was late.

Any help appreciated.

[blackjack]

[jugbandjames]

I don't have time to look it up, but one rule I know off the top of my head is that that can be omitted in informal speech or writing. So these sentences are all basically the same relative clause:

This is the church (that) Mina goes (to/attends.)
This is the church that Mina goes (to/attends.)
This is the church (that) Mina (goes to/attends.)
Now is the time (that) you have to say the truth.


I'm pretty sure that 1, 3, and 4 are correct, and I'm pretty sure that 2 should be "This is the church that Mina goes to" but I'd have to do some research to tell you exactly why.[/i]

[oldfatfarang]

Thanks for the replies. Keep them coming. I need some specific grammar rules though.

Cheers.

[oldfatfarang]

Friday Bump.

[edwardcatflap]

I would say the pronoun 'where' means 'in which' or 'to which' so when there is a sentence with go, you don't need the extra preposition

e/g/ That's the restaurant where we went last week
It's the town where I was born

but similarly you can't omit the pronoun because there would be a preposition missing

e.g. That's the restaurant we went last week = wrong
It's the town I was born = wrong

When we use 'that' or 'which' we need the preposition

e.g. That's the restaurant that we went to last week
It's the town that I was born in.

So in relative clauses when we don't need a pronoun, we can eliminate that, which, when or why

e.g. That's the restaurant we went to last week (no which/that)
It's the town I was born in (no which/that)
Summer is the time most people go for their summer holidays (no when)
It's the reason he left (no why)

Thus. Of the sentences in bold, they're all correct except for number 2 as a preposition is needed. The relative pronouns can all be omitted except for 1. The relative pronoun can be omitted from 2 if you add 'to' at the end. In 1 you could say 'this is the church Mina attends' as attend takes a direct object and you don't need the preposition 'to'

Other separate points include. 'Tell' is better than 'say' in sentence 3. Purists may argue that you should not end a sentence with a prepsosition and 'That's the church Mina goes to' should be 'that's the church to which Mina goes.'

There are a lot of grammar issues involved in this one question, if that's what it is. Is it from a test?

[bde2]

In the case of #4, "reason why" is redundant. As you have written, it could be "That's the reason" OR "That's why", but certainly not both.

Same for #3, I believe. "Time when" is redundant.

As for #2... I think you're right about attaching "to" to "goes", as it's a phrasal verb, I believe.

And #1... I think "This is the church Mina goes to / attends" sounds best. As for specific rules... I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and I'll probably get shot down by a grammarian lurking somewhere on Dave's, but I'm going to say that the use of "where" would make "Mina goes" an adjectival phrase, but the church is the object (of Mina's action of going). I'm really shaky on grammar... if I got it totally wrong, go easy on me, comrades... I'm a product of the American school system.

Well then. I hope I haven't needlessly muddied the waters. Good luck, OFF.

[The Cosmic Hum]

As for the specific rule...

In relative clauses, when the pronoun is the object of the dependant clause, it can be omitted.

[oldfatfarang]

Wow! Thanks for the help. I really appreciate it.

I needed to explain these sentences to a co-teacher.

Thanks again.