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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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 Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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| reactionary wrote: |
| Yes, we are all little John Galts |
Boom! You got me. Congratulations! You win! |
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cdninkorea
Joined: 27 Jan 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| But many, such as V.I. for example, have no clue about the political map and won't understand what you wrote. |
I majored in Philosophy and have TAUGHT a course in Political Philosophy when in grad school. And, oh, I did a 3-credit undergraduate Independent Study course which I entitled "The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand".
I can barely stomach her ideas after getting more than my fill of what she was all about. Her vision of society, the role of government, and human nature is fantastic and fanatical. Public debate, dissent and democracy in public policy is sacrificed on behalf of an unrealistic ideology which needs to be uniformly inculcated in the masses or else enforced mercilessly by the authorities, and it is this need for unanimous assent by the citizenry or else police law enforcement that makes her past the old British Tories on the right wing of the spectrum, as traditionally conceived, not so far from the fascists' vision. That said, the issue of whether to put her ideas on the side of the people or the king is about as fruitful as to deny her ideas a place on the left or right. |
I honestly have no idea where you could have read this. Public debate and dissent would not be disencouraged in any way in an Objectivist society, and democracy would allow people to vote for representatives in a constitutionally limited government. No one, authority or otherwise, would be allowed to enforce anything except for protecting peoples' life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
This is a serious question: where did you get this from? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| But many, such as V.I. for example, have no clue about the political map and won't understand what you wrote. |
I majored in Philosophy and have TAUGHT a course in Political Philosophy when in grad school. And, oh, I did a 3-credit undergraduate Independent Study course which I entitled "The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand". |
How does that challenge Ontheway's view that you have no clue about the political map?
Oh, and by the way, even if your philosophy (and Rand) credentials are actually true, I assume this was quite some time ago, as you are badly out of shape.
| VanIslander wrote: |
| makes her past the old British Tories on the right wing of the spectrum, as traditionally conceived, not so far from the fascists' vision |
Fascism was socially and economically totalitarian - the complete opposite of Rand. Rand even thought mixed economies were immoral. If we concede that Rand did, perhaps, have an uncomfortably strict and dogmatic view about individual self-help, I maybe agree that Rand was right-wing, but there's no relation to fascism at all. Rand's conception of government was that its sole purpose was to protect individuals from violence and other forms of coercion.
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[Fascism was a] form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
Robert O. Paxton, The Anatomy of Fascism) |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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What's with the people responding to VanIslander by posting European-style political maps? Political maps are an abstract intellectual tool, not some sort of fact of the universe. A one-axis political spectrum and a two-axis political map are simply different ways of expressing rough political stance in a simplified fashion. The latter is more detailed, but you could make an even more detailed map by adding another axis, and another, and so forth. That doesn't make less detailed maps wrong.
American politics uses a right-left spectrum, and on that spectrum, Libertarianism is far right. As such, VanIslander is correct about Ayn Rand. Yes, she's a conservative, she's simply not a Republican. The fact that on an entirely different political map she falls somewhere else is irrelevant to his case. In fact, the original poster is incorrect for having used the term conservative when he should have used the term Republican. Republicans may have largely hijacked American conservative politics, but they aren't the platonic form of conservatism. In fact, many of the policies they support are decidedly unconservative, especially from an economic point of view.
On a right-left spectrum, there are some people whose views are so strange and different that they simply cannot be placed. Ayn Rand is not one of them; she's solidly far right wing. Where to put her on a two-axis political map is an entirely different discussion that's ultimately irrelevant to VanIslander's point. He didn't invent the American political spectrum, he's just utilizing it. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 07, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Fox,
Great Post!
the Unposter |
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noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
I majored in Philosophy and have TAUGHT a course in Political Philosophy when in grad school. And, oh, I did a 3-credit undergraduate Independent Study course which I entitled "The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand".
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People have managed to write entire books on Ayn Rand with only a superficial understanding of her philosophy at best.
I recommend the book Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand by Leonard Peikoff, if you want to study her philosophy in a systematic way (whether you agree with the philosophy or not). It presents the best outline I've found, in a logical fashion rather than through articles on specific topics.
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| noraebang wrote: |
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
Wow, bizarre. Whose conservatives are we talking about here? |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Mon May 10, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| noraebang wrote: |
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
Wow, bizarre. Whose conservatives are we talking about here? |
I think there is a lot of confusion about the difference between social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and neo-conservatives.
Not all conservatives are gun toting baptists who support the war, big oil, big tobacco, and a ban on abortion. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
| noraebang wrote: |
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
Wow, bizarre. Whose conservatives are we talking about here? |
I think there is a lot of confusion about the difference between social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and neo-conservatives.
Not all conservatives are gun toting baptists who support the war, big oil, big tobacco, and a ban on abortion. |
Right though you are, my afro-bearing friend, I was referring to his supposition that, philosophically, conservative = liberal = communism.
I'm going to walk out on a limb and say that conservatives and liberals do not agree on the purpose of government. In fact, I'd venture that that is the biggest thing that separates them.
For (glaring) example:
Liberal: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that all citizens purchase sufficient health insurance.
Conservative: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that sufficient health care is available equally and competitively.
Communist: We imprison/kill anyone who dissents against the state. Die from preventable diseases to the glory of TEH REVOLUSHUNSLOL.
Yeah, I'm prejudiced against commies. Yawammafightaboutit? |
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noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| noraebang wrote: |
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
Wow, bizarre. Whose conservatives are we talking about here? |
All of them, altruism has a monopoly on the entire culture as a moral theory, and all conservatives believe the purpose of the government is to provide for "society." They just disagree with liberals and communists in the means of promoting society's interests. |
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noraebang
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
Liberal: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that all citizens purchase sufficient health insurance.
Conservative: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that sufficient health care is available equally and competitively. |
Right, their disagreements are entirely superficial. Both agree that the government must step in and provide "the greatest good for the greatest amount of people" regardless of whether it violates individual rights. What they disagree on are the superficial means of implementing that philosophy.
For example, conservatives today say "The government should only provide health care for 30 million seniors and the worst off" whereas liberals say "Everyone should have access to government health care if they are in need of it."
The fundamental operating principle of both groups is that need grants a right to someone else's money and labour, and that the government should step in and provide for that need by using other citizens.
No wonder people think conservatives are hypocrites! It's because they are. If both liberals and conservatives agree on the fundamental principle that a need translate into a right to something, then why don't conservatives wholeheartedly embrace that fact instead of holding out? Why only Medicare or Medicaid, for example? If we're talking about loyalty to principles, the liberals are less hypocritical than the conservatives, and the socialists and communists are the most consistent of all. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 10:01 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| djsmnc wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
| noraebang wrote: |
I agree with the OP that Ayn Rand was not a conservative. Conservatives fundamentally agree with all the ethical ideals of the liberals (and even communists), they just want to implement their policies more slowly or hang on to tradition. Conservatives and liberals are in agreement in all the fundamental philosophical positions about government. For example, the government exists to protect us from ourselves because we are innately irrational animals, the government exists to ultimately serve the public good, the standard of government action is whether "society" ultimately benefits, and governments are justified in initiating force for these ends. |
Wow, bizarre. Whose conservatives are we talking about here? |
I think there is a lot of confusion about the difference between social conservatives, fiscal conservatives, and neo-conservatives.
Not all conservatives are gun toting baptists who support the war, big oil, big tobacco, and a ban on abortion. |
Right though you are, my afro-bearing friend, I was referring to his supposition that, philosophically, conservative = liberal = communism.
I'm going to walk out on a limb and say that conservatives and liberals do not agree on the purpose of government. In fact, I'd venture that that is the biggest thing that separates them.
For (glaring) example:
Liberal: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that all citizens purchase sufficient health insurance.
Conservative: It is the responsibility of government to ensure by force of law that sufficient health care is available equally and competitively.
Communist: We imprison/kill anyone who dissents against the state. Die from preventable diseases to the glory of TEH REVOLUSHUNSLOL.
Yeah, I'm prejudiced against commies. Yawammafightaboutit? |
Your examples are a perfect example of the silliness of using terms. Liberal in the classical sense (as in liberalize trade, drug laws, etc) would fit more under your description of conservative above. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah. But that's the thing about such definitions -- they're relative. You're only liberal because someone else is conservative, or vice versa.
Communism, on the otherhand, is much more established. Basically, no matter the epoch, communists are assholes. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| noraebang wrote: |
[qu
No wonder people think conservatives are hypocrites! It's because they are. If both liberals and conservatives agree on the fundamental principle that a need translate into a right to something, then why don't conservatives wholeheartedly embrace that fact instead of holding out? Why only Medicare or Medicaid, for example? I. |
What are you on about?
Liberals and conservatives do not only exist in the United States. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Ayn Rand was NOT a conservative |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| noraebang wrote: |
[qu
No wonder people think conservatives are hypocrites! It's because they are. If both liberals and conservatives agree on the fundamental principle that a need translate into a right to something, then why don't conservatives wholeheartedly embrace that fact instead of holding out? Why only Medicare or Medicaid, for example? I. |
What are you on about?
Liberals and conservatives do not only exist in the United States. |
Quite true. Like Hot and Cold, the two polar opposites exist everywhere and mean differently (policy wise) everywhere. |
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