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RyanInKorea
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2010 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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| But maybe the people around you who are annoyed or threatened by your behavior do. |
Another bad reason for tasering someone: You're annoyed or unreasonably threatened by their behaviour.
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| Actually there are already are laws in place. But much of the time the use of a weapon whether it be a gun or Taser is left to the officer's discretion as it is simply impossible to write rules that cover ALL possible situations or rules that exactly fit every situation. To say nothing of the fact it would take years to memorize all those rules. That's just unrealistic. |
I have to respectifully disagree, I don't think it will be too much to memorize. Here's the rule: You're not allowed to remove the taser from your belt unless the suspect is physically assualting another individual or group of individuals or is acting in a threatening manner, such as wielding a weapon or motioning the intent to injure another.
I'll leave it to the courts to settle whether the situation above was warranted or not.
Ryan |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| to make matters worse a tubby officer (lets face it none of the police that are covering a sporting event are in the prime of life or health) looked like an ass in front of an entire crowd. |
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that someone whose job it is to protect the public isn't in good enough shape to chase a boy on a field?
The policeman runs after the teenager and grabs him. He takes him off the field and says "That's enough, son," and cuffs him. The incident is over, without someone quivering on the ground and the crowd booing at an unreasonable act of force.
Am I the only one who watched the video and saw a harmless idiot running on the field waving to the fans who four donut-eating security guys couldn't catch -- rather than an atomic terrorist? |
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RyanInKorea
Joined: 17 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 7:13 am Post subject: |
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Am I the only one bothered by the fact that someone whose job it is to protect the public isn't in good enough shape to chase a boy on a field?
The policeman runs after the teenager and grabs him. He takes him off the field and says "That's enough, son," and cuffs him. The incident is over, without someone quivering on the ground and the crowd booing at an unreasonable act of force.
Am I the only one who watched the video and saw a harmless idiot running on the field waving to the fans who four donut-eating security guys couldn't catch -- rather than an atomic terrorist? |
No, you're not alone.
Ryan |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2010 8:19 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| RyanInKorea wrote: |
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| Physically restraining someone is a degree of force. Under your system, if a person were to run out onto the field it would be functionally impossible to remove them until they harmed someone in some way, since police wouldn't even be allowed to touch him. Police would be stuck repeatedly asking him to leave, which probably wouldn't do much. |
Obviously, running out onto the field would be a enough ('fullfill the requirement', to use my previous definition) to physically restrain and even tackle an individual. Running onto the field is not enough to warrant the taser though. |
Why? I asked for statistics that showed if tasers were more likely to cause lasting harm than being tackled earlier in this thread and no one answered me. Do you have such statistics? Because if a taser hasn't been proven to be more likely to cause lasting harm than a tackle, I don't see your point. If you do have such statistics on the other hand, I'll agree with you that this situation wasn't worth the added chance of lasting injury. |
Are you seriously comparing tasering to tackling? People have died from tasers but not from tackles. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 1:30 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| RyanInKorea wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Physically restraining someone is a degree of force. Under your system, if a person were to run out onto the field it would be functionally impossible to remove them until they harmed someone in some way, since police wouldn't even be allowed to touch him. Police would be stuck repeatedly asking him to leave, which probably wouldn't do much. |
Obviously, running out onto the field would be a enough ('fullfill the requirement', to use my previous definition) to physically restrain and even tackle an individual. Running onto the field is not enough to warrant the taser though. |
Why? I asked for statistics that showed if tasers were more likely to cause lasting harm than being tackled earlier in this thread and no one answered me. Do you have such statistics? Because if a taser hasn't been proven to be more likely to cause lasting harm than a tackle, I don't see your point. If you do have such statistics on the other hand, I'll agree with you that this situation wasn't worth the added chance of lasting injury. |
Are you seriously comparing tasering to tackling? People have died from tasers but not from tackles. |
I'm just asking for statistics. Deaths could be included in those statics, but I'd also like other forms of harm to be included. I know Amnesty International claims a tiny number of people have died of tasing; I'm honestly not sure if their claims are true or not, especially on a case-by-case basis. Given how strongly some people here seem to feel about it, I thought maybe they had some information on hand.
Until I'm provided with some data that shows tasing is genuinely substantially more dangerous than tackling, I guess I am in fact comparing the two. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Moldy Rutabaga wrote: |
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| to make matters worse a tubby officer (lets face it none of the police that are covering a sporting event are in the prime of life or health) looked like an ass in front of an entire crowd. |
Am I the only one bothered by the fact that someone whose job it is to protect the public isn't in good enough shape to chase a boy on a field?
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The "boy" was 17. The average 17 year-old male is going to be more athletic than the average male over 35, I'd guess. Should cops all be forced to resign when they are no longer as fleet-footed as 17 year-old? Or should all cops that can't run 100 meters in less than 11 seconds be consigned to desk work? |
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goniff
Joined: 31 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: |
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just out of curiousity...
how hard is it for anyone to obtain a taser in the USA
or indeed anywhere else? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Are you seriously comparing tasering to tackling? People have died from tasers but not from tackles. |
In the interest of accuracy, haven't there been a large number of serious injuries and even deaths from being tackled? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2010 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| AsiaESLbound wrote: |
This is long, but it's a first hand account of what America really is like. Please read on.
Police take a hard line stance in the states. To give you an idea of what our police state does to our young. You can get in serious trouble over minor infractions leading to your whole life being screwed up where you can't get student loans and little chance at a job. It's already more than hard enough for those of us without police records. Something like a repeat offender for improper car registration, lack of insurance, or a number of miscellaneous infractions adding up to severe criminal penalties like probation, jail, and finally prison. Going to court in America is no joke. Penalties can be harsh so it behooves the defendants to look clean and act respectful. I had a poor friend with long hair and left earring who got caught driving a small gas powered moped with no license when he was 17, had chance at getting a license suspended, kept driving it, got caught again and further suspension of being eligible for a license so he never had a driver license. He then drove cars in his 20's trying to get work, but got caught with no license, improper registration, and no insurance several times which he is now sitting in prison for the 2nd time over a minor probation violation at the age of 38 of not making a meeting on time due to lacking transport and able to pay the exorbitant fines. This problem around his legality of driving has been going on for 21 years now yet he's not a bad man or did anything really bad. He was a thin able bodied factory worker type living in an age where factories were anything, but disappearing.
This tragedy has been severely harsh for millions of Americans in the past 20 years. To make matters worse, the police and courts are about as consistent and competent in every bit of what inconsistent and incompetence means. He lost in life over being pulled over and getting citations on minor infractions, because he kept driving without license with no option to ever get one, transportation was necessary for employment with no public transit like in Korea, and didn't have the money to buy his way out of the funk due to simply lacking employment opportunity and transportation. He wasn't a speeder, no DUI's, nor accidents. His poor mother tried to help him pay the excessive fines, but they were too much leading to probation violations of not paying landing him in DOC. He's now doing 5 years in the pin, but isn't a bad person and never done anything more than drive without a license to seek opportunity. When he gets out, he has no where to go since his relatives are dead and his uncle is also in the pin who is a bad man for being a bad thief and meth cook. I miss being able to talk to my buddy and see him back home. I wish for him to have a job and live on his own.
To get back on topic, not only did this boy get wrongfully tazered, he now has a police record handicapping him for employment for quite some time to come which can lead to further problems like poverty and frustration leading him to commit crimes. I grew up in horrible fear of 2 things. Acquiring a police record. Suffering the suffering of poverty in a police state where being in one little wrong place at the wrong little time puts you in hardship for life or about 7 years at the least. Expunging records after 7 years is often difficult according to many accounts. I'm lucky I didn't get in trouble even though I ran around, had long hair, left earring, smoked weed, hung out with people the police watched, was poor, and drove without insurance just to pay rent at times so I wouldn't be sleeping in parks and lots where police will bust you. I'm not entirely sure if everywhere in America is a police state, but it helps to have money. If you don't have money, it's rational to fear the police. |
Driving without a license, driving without insurance, speeding ... these should not be criminal offenses at all. Government must be removed from all facets of transportation and energy activities.
There should be penalties, which might include financial payments or loss of driving privileges, that are issued by the owners of the highways or roads involved. Only civil action could be taken against rule breakers.
Governments should not be allowed to build, regulate, finance, subsidize or own roads and highways.
Socialism is the problem.
Liberty is the answer. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Are you seriously comparing tasering to tackling? People have died from tasers but not from tackles. |
In the interest of accuracy, haven't there been a large number of serious injuries and even deaths from being tackled? |
I have not heard of that, but if anyone has got the data, please post it. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Are you seriously comparing tasering to tackling? People have died from tasers but not from tackles. |
In the interest of accuracy, haven't there been a large number of serious injuries and even deaths from being tackled? |
I have not heard of that, but if anyone has got the data, please post it. |
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football wrote: |
Statistics
From 1931 to 2006, the National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research has reported 1,006 direct and 683 indirect fatalities resulting from participation in all organized football (professional, college, high school, and sandlot) in the US [2]. While the yearly number of indirect fatalities has remained near 9.0 per year, the yearly number of direct fatalities has declined from an average of 18.6 per year between 1931-1970, 9.5 per year from 1971�1990, to 4.3 per year from 1991-2006.]
In 2006, with an estimated 1.8 million participants in organized football, the survey reported a relatively high 16 indirect deaths but only one fatality directly attributable to football play (a high school running back who suffered a fatal spinal injury when tackled).[2][3 |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_issues_in_American_football
also:
http://www.kxly.com/news/23513997/detail.html |
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kiknkorea
Joined: 16 May 2008
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 1:50 am Post subject: |
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| Should cops all be forced to resign when they are no longer as fleet-footed as 17 year-old? |
Well, maybe not every Officer Bob. But I certainly expect there to be some people in fit shape if they want to wear a badge, and I don't think it's unreasonable that the police force should assign such people to a sporting event where such things happen. I'm not in top condition, but I think four of me should be able to catch one idiot teenager zig-zagging and waving his arms. If he was Usain Bolt and clearly outrunning the police, I don't think the crowd would have booed so much.
This is baseball. The game already is boring as Daegu in February and lasts foreeeeever. What difference does it make if the game is delayed for another ten seconds while these pathetic chubs catch him? To me it would be more fun than the playing. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 7:52 am Post subject: |
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The boy was putting no one in danger; the most he did was interrupt a for-profit sporting event and upset some paying customers in the process. If the security at the game can't catch him in the outfield, then they should simply wait until more security shows up to surround him to cuff him and escort him out peacefully. Afterward he can, if the team owners decide its necessary, be tried in court, fined, and maybe jailed. But there's absolutely ZERO reason to use tasers (or tackling) to handle something as nonviolent as an idiot running around the outfield waving his arms around.
There are currently rules and regulations stipulating when any individual, police or citizen, can use deadly force. I fail to see why there hasn't been any attempt to do the same for these lower levels of force, especially in light of so many publicized tasering incidents. They wouldn't be difficult to create, they wouldn't be difficult to teach, and they certainly wouldn't be difficult to follow.
Seriously, all these overtly unnecessary displays of excessive force by the police in America are embarrassing.
Last edited by geldedgoat on Wed May 19, 2010 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tefain
Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Location: Not too far out there
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2010 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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We know Americans can get most anything, but can they be obtained in Korea?
And more importantly, is there a kids model for no-fail classroom control?
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