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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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 Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| caniff wrote: |
Islam is a crap desert religion.
To be fair. so is Christianity and Judaism.
Basically if you need a space god to help you get laid or to tell you what's right from not there is definitely something wrong with you. |
Shut up |
Okay. |
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Welsh Canadian
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| Welsh Canadian wrote: |
Because in the UK you arent allowed to wear hoodies in a shopping centre so why should someone be allowed to wear a veil?
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Pardon the interruption, but when you say "hoodie" do yo mean a hooded-sweatshirt? Even with the hood down? |
Yes hooded sweatshirts but with the hood up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Welsh Canadian wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
So can someone tell me why someone wearing a burqa bothers them?
I really don't care. Maybe the person is a demented islamo-fascist and I should be paying attention to their tick-tocking gym bag.
Or maybe they are the Muslim equivalent of some weird dresser back home whos just being obnoxious with how they dress to stand out in a certain way and be a tad individualistic and show Muslim Pride or some such, but they are in fact a decent person underneath the flowing robes.
I don't care. I just don't. Let people wear what they want to wear.
What's next? Banning trenchcoats, fatigues, flags on clothes, shirts with profane/lewd comments on them, etc.?
If someone can wear a shirt with a pot leaf or a picture of Che or make a cartoon mocking Mohammed, then Muslims can wear their whatehaveyou. |
Because in the UK you arent allowed to wear hoodies in a shopping centre so why should someone be allowed to wear a veil?
For me it's for security reasons why they shouldnt be allowed to wear them. |
Good grief what else scares people over there? Spiders? The Boogey-man?
I can get banning a ski mask in a bank or shopping area. But hooded sweatshirts? Veils? Get over your fear. |
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Welsh Canadian
Joined: 03 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Welsh Canadian wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
So can someone tell me why someone wearing a burqa bothers them?
I really don't care. Maybe the person is a demented islamo-fascist and I should be paying attention to their tick-tocking gym bag.
Or maybe they are the Muslim equivalent of some weird dresser back home whos just being obnoxious with how they dress to stand out in a certain way and be a tad individualistic and show Muslim Pride or some such, but they are in fact a decent person underneath the flowing robes.
I don't care. I just don't. Let people wear what they want to wear.
What's next? Banning trenchcoats, fatigues, flags on clothes, shirts with profane/lewd comments on them, etc.?
If someone can wear a shirt with a pot leaf or a picture of Che or make a cartoon mocking Mohammed, then Muslims can wear their whatehaveyou. |
Because in the UK you arent allowed to wear hoodies in a shopping centre so why should someone be allowed to wear a veil?
For me it's for security reasons why they shouldnt be allowed to wear them. |
Good grief what else scares people over there? Spiders? The Boogey-man?
I can get banning a ski mask in a bank or shopping area. But hooded sweatshirts? Veils? Get over your fear. |
It's not just fear. It because you can hide your face pretty well with a hoodie on. So the security in shopping malls don't like it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388383/Stabbed-bus-hooded-youths.html
Althought Cameron might try to argue against it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/5162010.stm
A google search validates my post
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=aXY&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=hooded+youths&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Welsh Canadian wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Welsh Canadian wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
So can someone tell me why someone wearing a burqa bothers them?
I really don't care. Maybe the person is a demented islamo-fascist and I should be paying attention to their tick-tocking gym bag.
Or maybe they are the Muslim equivalent of some weird dresser back home whos just being obnoxious with how they dress to stand out in a certain way and be a tad individualistic and show Muslim Pride or some such, but they are in fact a decent person underneath the flowing robes.
I don't care. I just don't. Let people wear what they want to wear.
What's next? Banning trenchcoats, fatigues, flags on clothes, shirts with profane/lewd comments on them, etc.?
If someone can wear a shirt with a pot leaf or a picture of Che or make a cartoon mocking Mohammed, then Muslims can wear their whatehaveyou. |
Because in the UK you arent allowed to wear hoodies in a shopping centre so why should someone be allowed to wear a veil?
For me it's for security reasons why they shouldnt be allowed to wear them. |
Good grief what else scares people over there? Spiders? The Boogey-man?
I can get banning a ski mask in a bank or shopping area. But hooded sweatshirts? Veils? Get over your fear. |
It's not just fear. It because you can hide your face pretty well with a hoodie on. So the security in shopping malls don't like it.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388383/Stabbed-bus-hooded-youths.html
Althought Cameron might try to argue against it
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_politics/5162010.stm
A google search validates my post
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=aXY&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial&channel=s&q=hooded+youths&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai= |
Oh my gosh, they've hidden their face, we'll never stop them now. 
Considering plenty of people can commit crime while showing their face, I don't think the whole disguise thing is that big of a deal.
I mean if you are trying to set off a bomb, its not the veil that hides the bomb, its the gym bag. Besides most of those types want their face to be seen and known.
Just another attempt to use "security" to promote general bigotry. If people REALLY were that scared, there'd be metal detectors. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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I'm on the side that says niqabs are a misogynistic cultural practice that has no more place in American society than polygamy.
That said, I don't think it is a threat to security. I don't think ski masks are, either.
Wearing a ski mask doesn't result in a robbed bank.
Guy walks in wearing a mask, everyone holds their breath and gnashes their teeth. He has to remove it temporarily so they can ID him for his account. He leaves with his own money. High stress, for some, but no harm was done and that dude's face was toasty warm!
Scenario two: Guy walks in and robs the place. The amount of foul indicates that harm was done, but it wasn't because he was wearing a mask.
Likewise, if you walk around with your hood up indoors like the eminent Mr. Cornholio, and people will instantly give you a wide berth. Not exactly the element of surprise. |
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atomicdeathmonkey
Joined: 09 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
I'm on the side that says niqabs are a misogynistic cultural practice that has no more place in American society than polygamy.
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nail, head!
it's not bigotry if it goes against a nations beliefs now is it ? |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| For the liberals: how many Burka-totin' Koran thumpers can be brought into our countries before they're destroyed? Let's start with the UK. Population approx 60 million ppl. How many labour-voting alla beerhaters can this country safely sustain? Hit me. 3 million? 5 million? 20 million? Give me a number. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 19, 2010 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| For the liberals: how many Burka-totin' Koran thumpers can be brought into our countries before they're destroyed? Let's start with the UK. Population approx 60 million ppl. How many labour-voting alla beerhaters can this country safely sustain? Hit me. 3 million? 5 million? 20 million? Give me a number. |
Given you're the one that seems to believe a certain number of citizens wearing a certain type of attire can destroy a country, perhaps you should answer your own question. I don't think anyone who opposes limitations on our right to wear what we please believes that wearing a certain type of attire can lead to the destruction of a civilization, so obviously we can't answer. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:41 am Post subject: |
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I agree with Derb:
http://www.johnderbyshire.com/Opinions/RadioDerb/2010-04-02.html
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07 � Belgium bans burkas. Ah, plucky little Belgium. Yes, when push comes to shove for Western Civ., Belgium is always in the front line. Here they are again, headline from the London Daily Mail: Belgium moves to become first European country to ban the burka. Radio Derb's been here before too, just four weeks ago, and we'll say again what we said then: "Libertarianism in One Country."
Bottom line: Let X be the proportion of your population made up by immigrants from utterly different cultures; and let Y be the number of laws you have to pass restricting personal liberty. Derbyshire's theorem states that Y is proportional to X. If you have a huge immigrant population with strange garments, customs, and languages, you will have a lot of frictions in your society, and you will need laws to control those frictions.
So here, once again, is Radio Derb's solution to the burka problem: severely restrict immigration from places where women wear burkas, and ask burka-ed non-citizens to leave. Then let citizens dress as they please, within the constraints of customary modesty, whatever those constraints are for your particular society. The better you guard your borders, and the more parsimonious you are with settlement visas, the more freedom your citizens can enjoy. Libertarianism in one country. Belgium has got itself another Nanny State law, because Belgium allowed 650 thousand Muslims to settle there. If they hadn't allowed the settlement, they wouldn't need the law. What's difficult to understand here? |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I think we should allow female childhood circumcision and breast flattening. Those cultural institutions are being prohibited by freedom hating bigots. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| .38 Special wrote: |
| I think we should allow female childhood circumcision and breast flattening. Those cultural institutions are being prohibited by freedom hating bigots. |
Bad comparison. Those things are already illegal under the law, so there's no ad absurdum argument to be made about toleration of the burqa leading to toleration of FGM. In order to allow FGM, we'd have to rescind existing laws that, by implication, forbid the practice. But in allowing the burqa, the state isn't changing any existing laws, they're just maintaining the status quo ie. stay out of regulating what people wear.
But I agree that there could be some practices, which though they may be legal, would be socially disruptive if practiced widely. As such, I think Derbyshire is correct in saying that IF the burqa is a socially disruptive item, the solution is to limit immigration from those countries whose citizens are likely to wear it. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| .38 Special wrote: |
| I think we should allow female childhood circumcision and breast flattening. Those cultural institutions are being prohibited by freedom hating bigots. |
Bad comparison. Those things are already illegal under the law, so there's no ad absurdum argument to be made about toleration of the burqa leading to toleration of FGM. In order to allow FGM, we'd have to rescind existing laws that, by implication, forbid the practice. But in allowing the burqa, the state isn't changing any existing laws, they're just maintaining the status quo ie. stay out of regulating what people wear.
But I agree that there could be some practices, which though they may be legal, would be socially disruptive if practiced widely. As such, I think Derbyshire is correct in saying that IF the burqa is a socially disruptive item, the solution is to limit immigration from those countries whose citizens are likely to wear it. |
Seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, no? Lots and lots and lots of Muslims here in the States. Been that way for more than a hundred years -- the Ford plant in Detroit, MI, brought in a huge load of them -- Persians, I think.
This has never been a problem. My point about female genital mutilation and breast crushing was that cultural practices that are disruptive can be banned, have been banned, and should be banned.
I consider it to be a great comparison, you just weren't getting what I was trying to get at.
I see no inconsistency here in banning the niqab, no cause of alarm for the liberty folks (whom I count myself among), no reason to be upset. Banning oppressive practices is good policy; it is liberating. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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I say that until the person wearing the burqa speaks up and says indeed, that they are forced to wear it, we have no cause to have them not to wear it.
Don't put words in people's mouths as to whether or not they are forced to wear something.
Is it okay for me to wear a Stormtrooper costume or an Emperor's Crimson Guard costume or Klingon makeup? I remember now where I've seen the burqa- in The Fifth Element, the blue-skinned Opera singer!
Buraq wearers could just dodge the law by saying they are wearing a costume from a movie.
And if it IS misogynistic, misogyny is still allowed under free speech. The person in question is expressing that view. We may strongly disagree with that view, but they are entitled to express it.
I should also say that I find the burqa nowhere near as offensive as the anti-Muslim cartoons (see other thread).
I'm sorry, but saying its wrong for someone to wear a burqa, but its okay for someone to draw cartoons mocking someone's religion is just silly.
For the record I think we should allow cartoons and burqas. I also think that as a rule of "when in Rome" and common courtesy, we should not draw mocking cartoons, and that Muslim immigrants should refrain from wearing the burqa. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| For the liberals: how many Burka-totin' Koran thumpers can be brought into our countries before they're destroyed? Let's start with the UK. Population approx 60 million ppl. How many labour-voting alla beerhaters can this country safely sustain? Hit me. 3 million? 5 million? 20 million? Give me a number. |
Given you're the one that seems to believe a certain number of citizens wearing a certain type of attire can destroy a country, perhaps you should answer your own question. I don't think anyone who opposes limitations on our right to wear what we please believes that wearing a certain type of attire can lead to the destruction of a civilization, so obviously we can't answer. |
You're putting words in my mouth. I'll make it simple for you: these people will predominantly vote for Sharia law. Wearing a certain type of attire can proliferate the evil idea of islam. Those who don't wear the burka will be called whores and be poked with sharp sticks, called fatsos, and everyone will laugh at them.
How the Veil Conquered Cairo University:
http://www.aina.org/news/20100205110026.htm |
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