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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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 Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| This kind of thinking reinforces my point rather than detracting from it |
This kind of thinking - the very small part of a 13-page paper quoted - might reinforce your point, but other ideas in the paper clearly do not. George Reisman argues that your binary, whereby it's either centrally-administered government-running of the economy (and saving the planet) vs capitalism (and destroying the planet), is a false binary. Fairly obviously, environmental issues present lucrative business opportunities. That point stands alone. Moreover, increased government-intervention into the economy, to 'save the planet', may well prevent these things from coming into existence, particularly if the capital that might otherwise be invested in sound environmental business opportunities is instead confiscated by the government, in the form of higher taxes, to be wasted on almost assuredly unsuccessful 'save the planet' government works. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| This kind of thinking reinforces my point rather than detracting from it |
This kind of thinking - the very small part of a 13-page paper quoted - might reinforce your point, but other ideas in the paper clearly do not. George Reisman argues that your binary, whereby it's either centrally-administered government-running of the economy (and saving the planet) vs capitalism (and destroying the planet), is a false binary. |
I agree, that's a false binary. However, that's also a binary I've never discussed, and is as such not relevent to my case. The very real binary I'm discussing is a marketplace with some governmental regulation or interaction, and an unregulated, purely capitalistic one.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fairly obviously, environmental issues present lucrative business opportunities. That point stands alone. |
Without the government involving itself in some way to create potential profit for environmentally focused companies, I'm not sure how true this is.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Moreover, increased government-intervention into the economy, to 'save the planet', may well prevent these things from coming into existence, particularly if the capital that might otherwise be invested in sound environmental business opportunities is instead confiscated by the government, in the form of higher taxes, to be wasted on almost assuredly unsuccessful 'save the planet' government works. |
I agree that government intervention has the potential to harm rather than help. That doesn't invalidate governance as a potential tool in our toolbox, though, it just means it must be used intelligently. So long as so many people continue to be deceived into thinking of governments as inherently wasteful, boarderline enemy entities, that's impossible. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| create potential profit for environmentally focused companies |
For example?
| Fox wrote: |
| So long as so many people continue to be deceived into thinking of governments as inherently wasteful, boarderline enemy entities, that's impossible. |
That's precisely what governments that have taken on overwhelming responsibility are - so much so that I really don't see how anyone could possibly take the opposite view. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| create potential profit for environmentally focused companies |
For example? |
An immense range of potential incentives to encourage companies to behave with the environment to mind could be instituted by the government, ranging from tax credits for companies that meet certain benchmarks to outright paying companies that engage in certain activity. How effective or wise any of these things are would need to be considered on a case-by-case basis. Obviously that's impossible with a population of people who will a priori condemn any plan put forward without consideration, and what's worse, such individuals can force compromises which ensure their prophecies of failure will be fulfilled.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| So long as so many people continue to be deceived into thinking of governments as inherently wasteful, boarderline enemy entities, that's impossible. |
That's precisely what governments that have taken on overwhelming responsibility are - so much so that I really don't see how anyone could possibly take the opposite view. |
Elected governments are whatever their citizens make them. We can do better if we genuinely believe we can do better and work towards that end. It's that simple. |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Even if GW is fake it still doesn't diminish the fact that the world needs
to end its addiction to oil.
If we did amazing things like sustainability, clean air, clean water, clean
cities, giving our children a nicer place, renewable resources, etc etc await us.
I'm not sure of GW is real or not.
I do know that this world is immensely more powerful and more
complex than we can ever imagine. We humans will probably
argue about GW for the next 30 years. And while we are doing so,
the world if she wants to will shakes us off like a dog scratching
a flea off its back. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: |
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| thomas pars wrote: |
Even if GW is fake it still doesn't diminish the fact that the world needs
to end its addiction to oil.
If we did amazing things like sustainability, clean air, clean water, clean
cities, giving our children a nicer place, renewable resources, etc etc.
I'm not sure of GW is real or not. |
We don't need to end our addiction to oil per se (there is a vast abundance, and so-called AGW science is a proven hoax). What we really need is to end our addiction to ponzi scheme economics. If you study the history of corporatism in the US, you find that big oil (ie. Standard Oil) and central banking go hand in hand. The Rockefeller family controls most of the supermajor oil companies, and also controls 2 of the largest banks (Citibank and Chase) that in turn control the Federal Reserve. It is no coincidence that government policy for many decades has focused on building infrastructure favorable to fossil fuel consumption, or that corporate financing is heavily geared toward unsustainable consumption of resources. If we had a free market, newer and better technologies would be developed and used by the public, and wasteful ones like burning coal and oil would become obsolete. But as long as we have a robber baron class controlling our economy via government intervention (passing legislation that enables and empowers cartels) and central banking, things will continue as usual. Big oil and ponzi economics are firmly interlinked and have long gone hand in hand with American empire building.
| Quote: |
I do know that this world is immensely more powerful and more
complex than we can ever imagine. We humans will probably
argue about GW for the next 30 years. And while we are doing so,
the world when she is ready will shakes it us off like a dog scratching
a flea off its back. |
Your anthropomorphic reference of the earth is rather telling (and amusing). Do you have a name for "her" too? Is it Gaia? Do you love Mother Gaia (the poor victim that she is) more than your fellow man? |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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Don't read too much into calling earth a she. I'm not some dirty hippie.
I'm also not the first to call earth a she anyway. It is pretty common
in our parlance. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu May 20, 2010 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Anyone who listens to Rachel is pretty damned. |
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