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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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 Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Ahhhh yes, West-Muslim relations: We're allowed to mock your religious figures, but if you choose to wear a Burqa in public that is an insult to our culture and will not be permitted. |
Thats because a burqa is itself a tool of oppression and a denial of womens freedom.
..its not like any woman actually wants to wear one. Its just that jealous hubby's afraid she'll attract admiring glances if she shows so much as an elbow to the lustful male fraternity. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
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It assumes that men can't control themselves. Maybe the few issues of gang-rape that happen are more likely caused by sexual repression.
Those countries put down western culture and burn bibles all the time. Banning a burka is tame as compared to what they do. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:48 am Post subject: |
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Again, there are far better ways to critique a religion than mockery and cartoons. That's the tool of the crass, not the intellectual.
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| Those countries put down western culture and burn bibles all the time. Banning a burka is tame as compared to what they do. |
No, some people in those countries do that.
Millions of Lebanese, Iraqi, Egyptian, etc. Muslims don't do those things. More than the number that do do those things.
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| Thats because a burqa is itself a tool of oppression and a denial of womens freedom. |
Only if its forced.
Plenty of people around the world wear more modest dress out of choice.
Some people still put on a full 3 piece suit in hot weather because that was how they were raised.
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| while very few Westerners actually take offense at a veil freely worn |
really?
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| That's doubly true when outsiders drawing Mohammed doesn't even violate the spirit of the prohibition. |
I'm not arguing whether or not you would be able to draw such cartoons, just that maybe you shouldn't do such things.
It's pretty silly to try to claim some moral high-ground when you are drawing someone's religious figure with a pile of dung on their head.
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| But a lot of us don't respect Islam or the culture of various Arabic nations. When a group of people are glueing men's anus shut and torturing them to death, or stoning women to death, or so on, the time for polite respect has simply ended. Further, Islam (like many religions) is inherently non-respectful towards non-believers. The Qur'an is filled with mockery, insults, and scorn towards non-believers. According to the Qur'an I'm a "loser" who is evil and will suffer in "the Fire" forever in a most humiliating fashion. That's not the language of respect, and if you're a Muslim, you believe that it's all true. |
Yes, some Muslims do such things. The rest are punished with invasion of their nations and incidental bombings from us.
I mean seriously, who are we to preach about violence towards Muslims? Their radicals are a small minority who acted without the general consent of the populace.
Our war was done with the popular approval of John Q Citizen and has resulted in 100,000s of thousands of dead, many of whom cared little or nothing for Radical Jihadis.
I mean, try to put yourself in their shoes.
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| Is that the way it is? |
Yeah, it is. We dish it out, but we get holier than thou when they throw it back at us.
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| The debate fails when one side starts issuing death threats. |
Or starts wars and drops 2000 lb. bombs on Iraqi civilians.
And no, don't compare 9/11. One was done by an outlaw group that had little connection to Iraq. The other was down by the popular consent of the government.
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| You'd have to really do more than stick my mum's face on a dog to make me want to stab you though. |
Seriously?
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| Right now many Muslims sit back and allow the extremists to express themselves unchallenged. |
And many more try to stop them. More than the ones that sit back.
Again, immoral invasion circa 2003 anyone?
And AGAIN, why the, "Well they do it, so we should be allowed to too" argument. Weak.
At least be honest, say that you are perfectly fine with imposing your values via force upon other people, whether they want it or not. That and say that its okay for you to do what you want to do, but its not okay for them to do what they want to do. But admit you are not for freedom of expression, or for peace, or for respect of other nations or cultures, or for anything other than might makes right. That's what it all boils down to.
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| ..its not like any woman actually wants to wear one. |
Believe it or not, some people actually freely choose to embrace traditional beliefs, even if it means a more inconvenient lifestyle for themselves.
The idea that mocking other religious figures is good form, and that we should conform the people of the world to our worldview is completely anathema to me.
Silly me, I think that even though I may profoundly disagree with someone's way of life, they should be able to enjoy that lifestyle. That and you don't do things like mock a religion, culture, country, or one's mother.
Crazy ideas, I know. |
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.38 Special
Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| Draw away! Part of being an adult is stiffening your lip. Time for the Islamic Radicals to grow up and stop throwing hissies every time somebody some where else in the world doesn't kow-tow to their infantile desires. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| while very few Westerners actually take offense at a veil freely worn |
really? |
Yes, I'd say so. Admittedly my experience on this matter is anecdotal, so if you have data, I'd be interested.
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| That's doubly true when outsiders drawing Mohammed doesn't even violate the spirit of the prohibition. |
I'm not arguing whether or not you would be able to draw such cartoons, just that maybe you shouldn't do such things.
It's pretty silly to try to claim some moral high-ground when you are drawing someone's religious figure with a pile of dung on their head. |
I don't agree at all. So long as you would not respond with violence when someone drew your country/religious leader/mother/etc with dung on their head, doing this in no way harms your moral position, and so long as there are people trying to silence free express via violence, reinforcing our freedom of expression through its active use is valid.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But a lot of us don't respect Islam or the culture of various Arabic nations. When a group of people are glueing men's anus shut and torturing them to death, or stoning women to death, or so on, the time for polite respect has simply ended. Further, Islam (like many religions) is inherently non-respectful towards non-believers. The Qur'an is filled with mockery, insults, and scorn towards non-believers. According to the Qur'an I'm a "loser" who is evil and will suffer in "the Fire" forever in a most humiliating fashion. That's not the language of respect, and if you're a Muslim, you believe that it's all true. |
Yes, some Muslims do such things. The rest are punished with invasion of their nations and incidental bombings from us. |
Some Muslims torture people to death. Many Muslims sanction this act by accepting governments which behave in this fashion. All Muslims believe I'm a "loser who will burn in Fire." Either way, I see very little that is worthy of my respect.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I mean seriously, who are we to preach about violence towards Muslims? Their radicals are a small minority who acted without the general consent of the populace. |
I don't know who you and this "we" are, but I am someone who is also critical of my home population for engaging in various barbarities. I feel totally justified and totally unhypocritical in my assessment of Islamic countries and culture. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, I'd say so. Admittedly my experience on this matter is anecdotal, so if you have data, I'd be interested. |
I'd say the burqa law in France is pretty substantial evidence of popular sentiment against such things.
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| I don't agree at all. So long as you would not respond with violence when someone drew your country/religious leader/mother/etc with dung on their head, doing this in no way harms your moral position, and so long as there are people trying to silence free express via violence, reinforcing our freedom of expression through its active use is valid. |
Drawing a crass cartoon DOES harm your moral position. How the person chooses to respond is irrelevant.
I think drawing such things should be legal. But I also think it is rude, vulgar, and opens one up to 'fair game' responses. Killing someone, no. Socking them in the face, yes. Again its akin to a bully teasing the fat kid. The bully may have free speech, and he may be speaking the truth. That doesn't make it wrong for him to eventually be popped in the mouth. Sadly, this is the only way some people learn. The best way to avoid such failures of humanity is not to initiate with the mocking and teasing.
Seriously, didn't we learn that insults like that are wrong at the ripe old age of 5?
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| Some Atheists torture people to death. Many Atheists sanction this act by accepting governments which behave in this fashion. All Atheists believe I'm a "loser who is suffering from delusion/insanity" Either way, I see very little that is worthy of my respect. |
There, fixed it. See how the arguments start? From their perspective you are doing to them, exactly what you feel they are doing to you.
So how do we become friends? I don't know, but I do know we start by not mocking each other.
But I don't think Atheists think that or that that should be the criteria applied to them or a good way to judge. Just as I don't think that's a good way to judge Muslims.
Don't put words into the mouths of 1 Billion people regarding what they believe, especially with the label "all".
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| Time for the Islamic Radicals to grow up and stop throwing hissies every time somebody some where else in the world doesn't kow-tow to their infantile desires. |
Again, that cartoon is not just directed at Muslim Radicals, but moderate and liberal Muslims as well. The fact that neither you, nor the cartoonists can make such distinctions and lump them all in one category speaks volumes about prejudices and judging by the group, rather than the individual. It also is bad art.
If you're against gang-banger culture, you don't draw cartoons depicting all black people in a Sambo-esque manner.
Talking about respect, I do know this, that every single human being I've ever meet whom I respect, would never do something like drawing a cartoon mocking someone's religion, no matter how firmly they disagreed with it. They might debate it or flat out reject it, but they would never mock it. Nothing about mocking cartoons is worthy of respect in my opinion.
Between claiming free speech with drawing mocking cartoons, banning free speech with Muslim veils, having colonized and exploited their nations, and invading and occupying a Muslim country without cause, and repeated bombings of innocent civilians, the death toll of which far exceeds all Muslim acts of Terrorism combined, maybe, just maybe, our moral high ground is not as firm as we think it is. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Talking about respect, I do know this, that every single human being I've ever meet whom I respect, would never do something like drawing a cartoon mocking someone's religion, no matter how firmly they disagreed with it. They might debate it or flat out reject it, but they would never mock it. Nothing about mocking cartoons is worthy of respect in my opinion.
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You would love Saudi Arabia.
| Steelrails wrote: |
having colonized and exploited their nations, and invading and occupying a Muslim country without cause, and repeated bombings of innocent civilians, the death toll of which far exceeds all Muslim acts of Terrorism combined, maybe, just maybe, our moral high ground is not as firm as we think it is. |
You're sinking into a labarynth that has little to do with the "morality" of drawing cartoons. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Is that the way it is? |
Yeah, it is. We dish it out, but we get holier than thou when they throw it back at us. |
What is 'it'? Cartoons? Threats?
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| The debate fails when one side starts issuing death threats. |
Or starts wars and drops 2000 lb. bombs on Iraqi civilians.
And no, don't compare 9/11. One was done by an outlaw group that had little connection to Iraq. The other was down by the popular consent of the government. |
We're talking about cartoons. If the threats were over the war then that would be more understandable.
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| You'd have to really do more than stick my mum's face on a dog to make me want to stab you though. |
Seriously? |
Well, let's say you wouldn't need police protection.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Right now many Muslims sit back and allow the extremists to express themselves unchallenged. |
And many more try to stop them. More than the ones that sit back.
Again, immoral invasion circa 2003 anyone?
And AGAIN, why the, "Well they do it, so we should be allowed to too" argument. Weak. |
Again what is 'it'? Cartoons or war? Have I walked into the wrong room. If they were threatening over the war their would be a lot more understanding.
| Steelrails wrote: |
At least be honest, say that you are perfectly fine with imposing your values via force upon other people, whether they want it or not. That and say that its okay for you to do what you want to do, but its not okay for them to do what they want to do. But admit you are not for freedom of expression, or for peace, or for respect of other nations or cultures, or for anything other than might makes right. That's what it all boils down to. |
Like many people I feel we were lied to about the reasons for going to war. At the time I didn't support the war for other reasons. But this isn't about the war or imposing my beliefs on other nations(I have a hard enough time doing that in Korea:lol: ), it's about my freedom in my country. I know freedom of speech is a difficult term, you can't walk around screaming you are going to kill someone and not expect a visit from the cops. But the cartoons don't threaten anyone's lives. Would you really welcome sharia law in your country? Or believe that those that choose to come under it really had a choice? |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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| Posted: Fri May 21, 2010 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Again, there are far better ways to critique a religion than mockery and cartoons. That's the tool of the crass, not the intellectual. |
Its a good thing then that many of the cartoons didn't mock the religion, but called into question the nature of representation, and also the futility of trying to veto expression. Check out Reason's 'winning' depictions of the Prophet.
Now look at those images selected and tell me they are mocking moderate Muslims. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, I'd say so. Admittedly my experience on this matter is anecdotal, so if you have data, I'd be interested. |
I'd say the burqa law in France is pretty substantial evidence of popular sentiment against such things. |
I'd say the burqa law in France is an extremist secular position pushed by politicians that is not representative of the West in general, either politically or culturally.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I don't agree at all. So long as you would not respond with violence when someone drew your country/religious leader/mother/etc with dung on their head, doing this in no way harms your moral position, and so long as there are people trying to silence free express via violence, reinforcing our freedom of expression through its active use is valid. |
Drawing a crass cartoon DOES harm your moral position. How the person chooses to respond is irrelevant.
I think drawing such things should be legal. But I also think it is rude, vulgar, and opens one up to 'fair game' responses. Killing someone, no. Socking them in the face, yes. |
Okay, then we simply have fundamentally incompatible world views. If you think, under any circumstances, it is acceptable to physically harm someone because they drew a picture, then we can never, ever agree.
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Some Atheists torture people to death. Many Atheists sanction this act by accepting governments which behave in this fashion. All Atheists believe I'm a "loser who is suffering from delusion/insanity" Either way, I see very little that is worthy of my respect. |
There, fixed it. See how the arguments start? From their perspective you are doing to them, exactly what you feel they are doing to you. |
Unlike Islam, atheism isn't a belief system, and as such they can't be grouped in this way. That said, if a religious person genuinely, sincerely, and totally believes their religion to be true, this is an understandable position for them to take. If you really, really, really believe God is the creator of all things, the ultimate source of all goodness, and that those who don't believe in him are evil, why on Earth should you respect them?
Religious people (and non-religious people for that matter) can think whatever they want, I don't care. Their criticisms, their disrespect, their contempt, it's all meaningless to me. I care about ideas, data, and arguments, not rabble-rousers.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| So how do we become friends? I don't know, but I do know we start by not mocking each other. |
I have no interest in befriending anyone who takes offense at a silly cartoon. None. I'm a person who says what he thinks, and the last thing I need is that kind of petty drama.
| Steelrails wrote: |
Don't put words into the mouths of 1 Billion people regarding what they believe, especially with the label "all".
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How many Muslims have you met that are willing to say the Qur'an is a lie? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| The Happy Warrior wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Again, there are far better ways to critique a religion than mockery and cartoons. That's the tool of the crass, not the intellectual. |
Its a good thing then that many of the cartoons didn't mock the religion, but called into question the nature of representation, and also the futility of trying to veto expression. Check out Reason's 'winning' depictions of the Prophet.
Now look at those images selected and tell me they are mocking moderate Muslims. |
The first one is interesting but a bit abstract. I like the second one best, since it tackles the issue not just of representation, but of our own prejudices as well (like most people I'm sure, my first instinct is to guess the black robed person is Mohammed, but upon further consideration I see many people in the picture who could qualify if you stop considering clothing), as well as how contrived taking offense at a picture like this really is (if this were presented in another context no one would ever think it had anything to do with Mohammed, and thus no one would take offense).
The third one I don't like as much as the Reason writer seems to. It's a bit clever, sure, but it doesn't really stir my mind as much. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 2:39 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Kimbop"]
| Steelrails wrote: |
Talking about respect, I do know this, that every single human being I've ever meet whom I respect, would never do something like drawing a cartoon mocking someone's religion, no matter how firmly they disagreed with it. They might debate it or flat out reject it, but they would never mock it. Nothing about mocking cartoons is worthy of respect in my opinion.
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You would love Saudi Arabia.
Uhm I don't think the idea that its wrong to mock Buddha, Christ, or Mohammed is one that is unique to Saudi Arabia.
Again, I don't think it should be illegal to draw such cartoons, just that it is in poor taste and vulgar.
I don't agree with killing someone who draws said cartoons or imprisoning them.
Ask yourself, does this kind of behavior really work towards the cause of peace or the cause of conflict?
Please try to see things from their perspective. The average Muslim does not endorse terrorist bombing or the like. However the average Muslim does revere Mohammed. If you want to go after Radical Islam go after Radical Islam, not Islam. But that may require too much hard thinking, its far easier just to paint with broad strokes.
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| If you think, under any circumstances, it is acceptable to physically harm someone because they drew a picture, then we can never, ever agree. |
It's not just drawing a picture. It's drawing a picture with the purpose to mock and insult.
I don't believe in physical harm towards someone just for speaking. However I do think there are "fighting words" and we know what those are. Same with drawing, I think certain ones reach the level where it reaches that level.
I could turn it around and say that if you believe that pictoral or verbal harassment, disrespect and bigotry towards people is good form (note- no mention of legality), then you and I can never agree.
Somehow in this day in age many people think its okay to taunt and mock and the second anyone takes offense to what they do they play this whole victim routine.
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| I'd say the burqa law in France is an extremist secular position pushed by politicians that is not representative of the West in general, either politically or culturally. |
Fair enough, I wish it were an extremist position in France and Belgium, rather than on course to be a position de jure.
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| I have no interest in befriending anyone who takes offense at a silly cartoon. None. I'm a person who says what he thinks, and the last thing I need is that kind of petty drama. |
From their perspective they have little interest in making friends with anyone who mocks their belief system.
Why not draw some cartoons that point out the good things about Muslims/Muslim countries?
Isn't positive reinforcement rather than harsh negativity a better way to communicate? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| I have no interest in befriending anyone who takes offense at a silly cartoon. None. I'm a person who says what he thinks, and the last thing I need is that kind of petty drama. |
From their perspective they have little interest in making friends with anyone who mocks their belief system. |
Then we should simply not interact with one another. It's really that simple. If Muslims -- or anyone -- hates the Western value of freedom of expression, they can and should simply stop reading Western media. No death threats, no pointless, irrational mob violence, just stop paying attention to Western media.
I don't think that bare minimum standard of civil behavior is too much to ask. We don't have to be friends, we just have to not physically harm each other.
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Why not draw some cartoons that point out the good things about Muslims/Muslim countries? |
Could you list a few "good things" about Muslim countries that you think would be good fodder for cartoons? Things, mind you, that aren't essentially human universals. |
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HijackedTwilight
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:28 am Post subject: |
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I believe there's some quote by Voltaire to the effect that I may totally disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
On the one hand, these people have a right to draw whatever they want.
On the other hand, I think it's stupid and artistically second-rate at best. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 4:53 am Post subject: |
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Death threats by Islamists to artists, cartoonists, publishers, translators film makers and others has been going on for some time. Rushdie is still in hiding the last I heard. Others are too. The Metropolitan Museum of Fine Art in NYC will not display images of Mohammed. No death threats there. Just anticipatory compliance. There is no fight left in them.
This is a question of western freedom of speech and expression. Without these freedoms all is lost but given the demographics in Europe all is probably lost anyway.
Europe is finished. This 'draw Mohammed day' is just the last breath. The final cultural kick of a continent that is expiring. Ethnic Europeans are old. They are not reproducing themselves, they are not even close. They are aborting themselves into extinction. Muslims in Europe are reproducing to beat the band. A young aggressive population will beat out an old pensioned off population anyday. Nothing beats demographics in a democracy.
Young Muslims in Europe are writing the agenda in Europe now. They are controlling the discourse. Thirty years ago we never heard of Muslims. Now, everywhere you care to look it's Islam a go go. An aging European population won't stand up. They want peace and quiet and will cave in and will surrender their freedoms one by one. |
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