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Wishmaster
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
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Posted: Sat May 01, 2010 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Oh, I'm sure that Arizona is shaking in its little booties about being boycotted. |
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catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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Cases like this could garner more sympahty:
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The first victim fell before the bill was signed. The victim, Abdon, a Latino trucker, was pulled over and asked for his �papers.� When he didn�t have his birth certificate on his person, he was jailed. His wife was called and told to bring his birth certificate to the jail to arrange his release. Abdon is a United States citizen born in Fresno, California.
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
Cases like this could garner more sympahty:
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The first victim fell before the bill was signed. The victim, Abdon, a Latino trucker, was pulled over and asked for his �papers.� When he didn�t have his birth certificate on his person, he was jailed. His wife was called and told to bring his birth certificate to the jail to arrange his release. Abdon is a United States citizen born in Fresno, California.
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That's awesome. "Carry your birth certificate constantly or risk arrest... if you're of a certain ethnic minority." Just imagine the headache if the woman hadn't been able to find her husband's birth certificate for some reason. |
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pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
Cases like this could garner more sympahty:
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The first victim fell before the bill was signed. The victim, Abdon, a Latino trucker, was pulled over and asked for his �papers.� When he didn�t have his birth certificate on his person, he was jailed. His wife was called and told to bring his birth certificate to the jail to arrange his release. Abdon is a United States citizen born in Fresno, California.
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I don't get it. In Virginia, police have computers in their squad cars. A simple swipe of your Drivers License, or inputting your License number into the computer will show your profile. Mr. Abdon didn't have his drivers license? Did he not have any identification? Could the Arizona police officer not verify Mr. Abdon's residency status via a valid driver's license?
As for the Arizona law, I support what they are doing. I think its interesting how a lot of people on Dave's can crack on Koreans going to Guam to give birth to babies with US citizenship, yet they could care less that people are waltzing into the US ILLEGALLY. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| catman wrote: |
Cases like this could garner more sympahty:
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The first victim fell before the bill was signed. The victim, Abdon, a Latino trucker, was pulled over and asked for his �papers.� When he didn�t have his birth certificate on his person, he was jailed. His wife was called and told to bring his birth certificate to the jail to arrange his release. Abdon is a United States citizen born in Fresno, California.
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This sort of thing normally goes against much of what I espouse, as it has much potential to be an infringement by the government on the personal liberties of Americans (as per the article). However, the current situation is out of control. There are between 12 and 20 million illegal immigrants in the US already (practically the same population as Canada in the next decade at this rate), and basically all of them are from Mexico. They are bankrupting the country, getting free benefits, driving down wages etc., and some of them are breaking laws.
The illegals need to be thrown out and the borders need to be secured, at the state level if nothing else. It is absolutely ridiculous that we have military bases and troops all over the globe, and spend trillions securing other countries' borders, and yet our own is wide open! On top of this the Mexican government and drug cartels are in the midst of a full on war! It's just insane...
I think at the present time laws in border states requiring people to carry birth certificates (or a similar ID proving citizenship) are not unreasonable. I'm still not sure how constitutional these laws are (I need to do some more research to confirm this), and there will probably be all sorts of legal complications, but I can't really think of a better alternative... This should not mean the average citizen has to get biometric ID cards or anything, but you should at least be able to produce your card while in these border states (or your passport with a proper visa if you're a foreigner). If illegals are caught, they need to be deported.
It's not that I'm totally unsympathetic, but the illegals really have no right be in the US. The Mexican people really need to fix their own country instead of just fleeing to ours en mass and dragging it down alongside... There is simply no way we can support them at the present rate. |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| I think its interesting how a lot of people on Dave's can crack on Koreans going to Guam to give birth to babies with US citizenship, yet they could care less that people are waltzing into the US ILLEGALLY. |
1) Are these the same people? I for one don't remember ever commenting on Koreans having babies in Guam.
2) I don't think anyone here is saying illegal immigration isn't a problem. Some of us simply disagree that the solution is racially profiling citizens and randomly demanding they provide proof of citizenship or face incarceration.
It's simply impossible to stem the tide of illegal immigrants by dealing with them one by one. It's not going to happen. Focus needs to be on creating an environment where coming here illegally is pointless, which means preventing people from hiring illegal immigrants at illegal rates. Destroy the incentive, and you'll see far fewer illegal immigrants. |
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thecount
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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As long as the US has a better quality of life than Mexico, "the incentive" to come here will persist.
The only way to destroy the incentive would be to elevate the Mexican lifestyle dramatically (which I do not see happening), or to dramatically lower freedoms and opportunity in the US (another hundred years or so of progressivism chipping away at individual liberty and the free market may accomplish this, but it won't matter by then).
The question is not "can we secure our borders" - we can.
The question is "do we have the political and economic willpower to do so?"
We do not.
We must accept that immigration will continue to be a serious issue for the US. With prevention ruled out, the only remaining option is damage control. We should institute programs designed to increase English fluency, promote the family unit (a stable family structure has been proven to have an enourmous beneficial influence on variables such as poverty, crime and health) and stress civics. The focus should be on incorporating immigrants entirely into functional society, not incorporating functional society into our immigrants. We have seen what happens when that experiement is attempted - look no further than the Muslimification of Europe that has been accellerating over recent years. Nor does immigration pose this assumed "positive benefit" for the economy that its champions assert. Rather, the benefit tops off at a certain maximum value point and then plummets, COSTING more per immigrant after that point. We've seen this demonstrated over and over recently, but again, Europe comes to mind, as it has engaged in nearly the same experiment. From 1971 to 2000, the number of immigrants in Germany more than doubled (from 3 million to 7.5 million), but the amount of immigrants that were employment did not change - 2 million.
http://www.nrc.nl/international/article2353318.ece/Europe_is_changing_to_accomodate_Islam,_says_US_author
I don't hate illegals. Heck, I am technically an illegal alien in Korea, as the government determined my contract was not legal.
All this said, we have to be rational and understand that large groups of people entering a country and refusing to adopt the culture can, by nature of an eventual plurality (if American birthrates continue to drop or remain level while illegal birthrates and immigration continue to increase or remain level), bypass the social and legal systems we have set up to ensure that our societ resists transformations.
We have protected our society from the legal rule of the tyrannical majority, but not from a more silent usurpation by a demographic. It's not racism or paranoia, but just a cold look at numbers and a bit of extrapolation. Countries that control their immigration much more strictly recognize the risks associated with eroding their demographic fabric. |
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darkjedidave

Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Location: Shanghai/Seoul
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Posted: Sun May 02, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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Arizona making it a CRIME to be in the state ILLEGALLY? What is the world coming to?!  |
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thecount
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
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Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 2:36 am Post subject: |
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I see no reason for immigration per se to ever be illegal. European settlers who forcibly took land away from Native Americans had no real legal status to do so, and their descendants' claims to lawful ownership are also ultimately bogus since they inherited stolen property (from illegal immigrants).
So much gun ownership is needed to protect vast amounts of stolen property - so Arizona has "legalized" more guns to fight off the so-called "illegal aliens" (in a classic case of doublespeak).
Moreover, why should migrant workers be any more blocked by artificial borders than migrating birds or butterflies are?
Politically, I think the prospect of losing their Major League spring training business will cause some consternation among a lot of folks . |
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bacasper

Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| darkjedidave wrote: |
Arizona making it a CRIME to be in the state ILLEGALLY? What is the world coming to?!  |
The next law will make it illegal to break any existing law. Didn't Bush once say something to the effect of, "Where's the law that says I must follow the law?"
| Rteacher wrote: |
I see no reason for immigration per se to ever be illegal. European settlers who forcibly took land away from Native Americans had no real legal status to do so, and their descendants' claims to lawful ownership are also ultimately bogus since they inherited stolen property (from illegal immigrants).
...
Moreover, why should migrant workers be any more blocked by artificial borders than migrating birds or butterflies are? |
I say we give everything from Texas to California back to the Mexicans from whom we stole it. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Mon May 03, 2010 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
That's awesome. "Carry your birth certificate constantly or risk arrest... if you're of a certain ethnic minority." Just imagine the headache if the woman hadn't been able to find her husband's birth certificate for some reason. |
I really don't know where my birth certificate is. I do have a passport at least (although it will be expiring tomorrow, whoops). Guess it is a good thing I am not hispanic nor drive in AZ.
| pkang202 wrote: |
A simple swipe of your Drivers License, or inputting your License number into the computer will show your profile. Mr. Abdon didn't have his drivers license? Did he not have any identification? Could the Arizona police officer not verify Mr. Abdon's residency status via a valid driver's license? |
Yes, it sounds like key info is missing from the article. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Location: retired
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Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Was thinking, if California boycotts Arizona that merely means that impaired accounts receivable on Arizona's balance sheet will be smaller.
Also, the broke as hell liberal states will have quite a bit of boycotting to do:
http://www.mmdnewswire.com/arizona-immigration-bill-8558.html
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17 States Now Filing Versions of Arizona's Immigration Bill SB 1070
May 21, 2010 (MMD Newswire) -- One of America's national organizations fighting against illegal immigration is announcing that 17 states are now filing versions of Arizona's SB 1070 law which is designed to help local police enforce America's existing immigration laws.
Numerous national and local polls indicated that 60-81% of Americans support local police enforcing immigration laws.
"Our national network of activists have been working overtime trying to help the state of Arizona and the brave Arizonans who have passed this bill," said William Gheen, President of Americans for Legal Immigration PAC. "Arizona no longer stands alone and we have now documented state lawmakers filing, or announcing they will file, versions of the Arizona bill in seventeen states! We will not stop until all states are protected from invasion as required by the US Constitution."
ALIPAC has documented the following 17 states are following Arizona's lead in response to citizen pressure.
ARKANSAS, IDAHO, INDIANA, MARYLAND, MICHIGAN, MINNESOTA, MISSOURI, NEBRASKA, NEVADA, NEW JERSEY, OHIO, OKLAHOMA, PENNSYLVANIA, RHODE ISLAND, SOUTH CAROLINA, TEXAS, UTAH |
The spirit of the times is changing. Just as the triumph of American liberalism seemed assured.. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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Posted: Sat May 22, 2010 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The US needs to crack down on illegal immigration, but if there isn't a simultaneous elimination of the minimum wage laws and elimination of the food stamp program, food costs in the US will skyrocket more than most people can imagine. |
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