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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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 Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
The statement is so glib and off hand that I doubt he meant it seriously. I assume he was trying to make a point about Africa's current level of economic activity, considering he goes on to over information about economic growth in developing countries. |
And what was the point, exactly?
Was he was trying to say that Africa never had serious economic activity (at least before outside intervention) and that their systems were comparable to or exactly the same as "wearing loin cloths and eating iguana"?
What's the point of a statement like that if you're not trying to be condescending?
| Fox wrote: |
| If you're spending money on cell phone bills and alcohol instead of a mosquito net (when you've all ready lost two children to malaria), rent, and your children's education, then you're not "the victim." Your children are, and you're the perpetrator. |
Aren't cell phones are the primary means of communication in most of Africa since phone communication didn't have to begin with landlines as they did in places like Europe and the US? In fact, landlines are much more expensive. So could it be that having cell phone bills is actually the cheapest of the two options?
In terms of alcoholism, I wonder how that can be remedied. In many African nations like Zambia, children are forced to begin drinking alcohol because they have no food. Some start drinking when they're young because they're depressed. Workers for decades in S. Africa used to be paid in alcohol, not even actual wages.
When entire generations of kids grow up drinking alcohol or being around alcoholic parents, it becomes more than just one family and one instance. It's a societal problem, which I'm sure you were trying to point out. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Was he was trying to say that Africa never had serious economic activity (at least before outside intervention) and that their systems were comparable to or exactly the same as "wearing loin cloths and eating iguana"?
What's the point of a statement like that if you're not trying to be condescending?
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Nobody makes a statement like that unless they're deliberately trying to be outrageous, or at least highly provocative. That this was intended to be just a legitimate part of critiquing African economic development is a little hard to swallow.
In any case, I fail to see how the consumption of iguanas would prove anything one way or another about economic development. Why couldn't a country continue to eat iguana AND have economic growth? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| If you're spending money on cell phone bills and alcohol instead of a mosquito net (when you've all ready lost two children to malaria), rent, and your children's education, then you're not "the victim." Your children are, and you're the perpetrator. |
Aren't cell phones are the primary means of communication in most of Africa since phone communication didn't have to begin with landlines as they did in places like Europe and the US? In fact, landlines are much more expensive. So could it be that having cell phone bills is actually the cheapest of the two options? |
People lived for thousands of years without telephone technology. It may well be that cell phones are cheaper than a land line for them. Rent should come first; having a place to live is more important than convenient communication. Your children's educations should come first; every year a child goes without proper education is impossible to replace. Your children's lives should come first; passing on a mosquito net when two of your children have died of malaria just so you can conveniently communicate via cell phone is ridiculous.
Your point about alcoholism is understandable; I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who are seemingly addicted to alcohol, but I haven't gone through what they have, so perhaps he's doing his best in the face of a crippling addiction of the likes I simply can't understand. As such, I won't press that point. But the cell phones are a pure vanity expense when compared to the things they claim to need. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
People lived for thousands of years without telephone technology. It may well be that cell phones are cheaper than a land line for them. Rent should come first; having a place to live is more important than convenient communication. Your children's educations should come first; every year a child goes without proper education is impossible to replace. Your children's lives should come first; passing on a mosquito net when two of your children have died of malaria just so you can conveniently communicate via cell phone is ridiculous. |
I was thinking more of people who use cell phones for work. For some workers, like farmers, having a phone is an absolute requirement, especially if you don't have a car to keep checking and re-checking prices.
Even still, there are studies that show having cell phones create economic growth, particularly in rural areas.
And if you don't think about the economic benefits, even just the human benefits and comfort of being able to talk to family, should not be discounted. Before phones, some people never spoke to their family for months on end.
I also don't think there are large groups of people buying cell phones in place of malaria nets, but I could be mistaken.
Also, cell phones have partially inspired this awesome kid, William Kamkwamba, who built a windmill when he was a teenager. People traveled for miles to use his windmills to power their homes, including farmers, workers and average people.
http://www.ted.com/talks/william_kamkwamba_on_building_a_windmill.html
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure, but it almost sounds like you're defending this couple choosing their cell phones over being able to make rent, buying a mosquito net, and paying for their children's education.
I'm not arguing that cell phones are a bad thing; I'm sure they're a quite good thing. None the less, people need to make choices, and if people are choosing non-essentials over essentials, they're beyond help, and if they lose their house, or their children come to harm, or their children's education suffers because of bad choices that could have been made otherwise, how can we seriously blame others?
A poor family that has to choose between their children's education and a place to live has my sympathy. The same family choosing between cell phones or alcohol and a place to live or their children's education does not. |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm really not trying to "defend" anything. I'm trying to find reasons because I want to find a solution. Throwing money at people isn't the answer, but ignoring them isn't the answer, either.
I'm arguing that in many cases, cell phones are essential. Some people simply cannot make a living without having a cell phone. And while it may not be the case for this couple, it certainly is the case for thousands of farmers, business people and rural villagers who use them to communicate with customers.
Alcoholism is a huge, generational problem in many countries like South Africa and Zambia, where, as I've said before, people were actually paid in wine and liquor instead of monetary wages or crops.
I sympathize with people who are alcoholic, although I absolutely do not condone their behavior. Some people have been alcoholic nearly their entire lives, unfortunately.
The entire situation is tough but we can find solutions. |
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thomas pars
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| thomas pars wrote: |
Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
Chile is one of the freest countries, socially and economically, in central America. It is commonly held up as an example of the success of neo liberal policy over the past 30 years. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| thomas pars wrote: |
Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
Chile is one of the freest countries, socially and economically, in central America. It is commonly held up as an example of the success of neo liberal policy over the past 30 years. |
Congratulations in picking up his point. Minus one point for your geographic error though. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| thomas pars wrote: |
Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
Chile is one of the freest countries, socially and economically, in central America. It is commonly held up as an example of the success of neo liberal policy over the past 30 years. |
Congratulations in picking up his point. Minus one point for your geographic error though. |
Dang it. I was in two minds as to which part of America to call it. I should have just goggled it. I'm into Economics, not geography. OK? Give me a break.
Still, I don't see Thomas defending his asinine point. I guess we had better make that one more point to me. 2-1. Boooyah! |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| thomas pars wrote: |
Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
Chile is one of the freest countries, socially and economically, in central America. It is commonly held up as an example of the success of neo liberal policy over the past 30 years. |
Congratulations in picking up his point. Minus one point for your geographic error though. |
Dang it. I was in two minds as to which part of America to call it. I should have just goggled it. I'm into Economics, not geography. OK? Give me a break.
Still, I don't see Thomas defending his asinine point. I guess we had better make that one more point to me. 2-1. Boooyah! |
Umm, you two are on the same page there. Guess you didn't pick up on what he was inferring. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| thomas pars wrote: |
Hello,
This is Milton Friedman. I am calling from hell. The reason I am calling is because I noticed your avatar is one of my books. Good choice if I may say so myself.
What's that? Oh, Pinochet wants to say hello. And he's curious what Chile is
like these days. I am kinda curious as well.
Well I'll let you get back to your little African debate.
Cheers. |
Chile is one of the freest countries, socially and economically, in central America. It is commonly held up as an example of the success of neo liberal policy over the past 30 years. |
Congratulations in picking up his point. Minus one point for your geographic error though. |
Dang it. I was in two minds as to which part of America to call it. I should have just goggled it. I'm into Economics, not geography. OK? Give me a break.
Still, I don't see Thomas defending his asinine point. I guess we had better make that one more point to me. 2-1. Boooyah! |
Umm, you two are on the same page there. Guess you didn't pick up on what he was inferring. |
Anyone quoting Milton from hell loses a point in my book. Everyone knows He (Milton Friedman) usurped Jesus at His right hand. |
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