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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Location: On your computer screen.
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:01 pm Post subject: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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This article says it all:
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And while we're at it, what about Paul's recent analysis of the catastrophic oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico? The Obama administration faces growing criticism for not being tough enough on BP for its failure to stop the gushing flow of crude that is fouling Louisiana's ecologically sensitive coastal marshes. Paul, however, sees things differently. "What I don't like from the president's administration is this sort of, 'I'll put my boot heel on the throat of BP,' " Paul said. "I think that sounds really un-American in his criticism of business."
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The "un-American" part is consistent with the campaign by Republican cynics and Tea Party wing nuts to delegitimize Obama's presidency. But the general idea -- that it's wrong to hold private firms strictly accountable for disasters such as the gulf spill -- appears to be something that Paul really believes, since he also dismisses the recent West Virginia mine explosion in which 29 miners were killed.
"We had a mining accident that was very tragic," he said. "Then we come in, and it's always someone's fault. Maybe sometimes accidents happen."
But maybe accidents are less likely to happen when appropriate safety standards are established and enforced. This kind of cause-and-effect reasoning is meaningful only to those who live in the real world, however. From all evidence, Paul lives in Libertarian La-La Land, where a purist philosophy leads people to believe in the purest nonsense. |
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/24/AR2010052402991.html |
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Fox

Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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"We had a mining accident that was very tragic," he said. "Then we come in, and it's always someone's fault. Maybe sometimes accidents happen." |
What I find especially perplexing about this is that in my understanding, Libertarianism has a strong focus on personal accountability. When workers die on the job due to their company skimping on safety measures, I would imagine a real proponent of Libertarianism would stand up and say, "Yeah, it is someone's fault, and they should be held legally accountable."
Rand Paul is just a rank and file Republican with a few quirky views from what I can see, and those quirky views (like being against anti-discrimination laws with regards to private businesses) are really just views I suspect many Republicans would like to voice but don't for fear of the political consequences. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Rand Paul doesn't claim to be a libertarian. He is a Republican. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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Fox wrote: |
Quote: |
"We had a mining accident that was very tragic," he said. "Then we come in, and it's always someone's fault. Maybe sometimes accidents happen." |
What I find especially perplexing about this is that in my understanding, Libertarianism has a strong focus on personal accountability. When workers die on the job due to their company skimping on safety measures, I would imagine a real proponent of Libertarianism would stand up and say, "Yeah, it is someone's fault, and they should be held legally accountable." |
It doesn't really have anything to do with safety measures. Ideally, businesses would offer a higher wage/salary, in return for greater risk to the employee. It's two consenting adults entering into a private, agreed upon in advance contract.
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Rand Paul is just a rank and file Republican with a few quirky views from what I can see, and those quirky views (like being against anti-discrimination laws with regards to private businesses) are really just views I suspect many Republicans would like to voice but don't for fear of the political consequences. |
Indeed. I'm not sure he even claims to be libertarian.
Many libertarians see the right to discriminate as free speech. Theoretically, businesses that discriminate are leaving money on the table, in the form of talent in the pool of people they are discriminating against. The businesses that don't discriminate are likely to prosper in the long run. Therefore, anti discrimination laws are both necessary, and an attack on free speech. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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asylum seeker wrote: |
Paul, however, sees things differently. |
So do I.
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Whereas US consumption of oil is around 21 million barrels a day, domestic production is just 6 million. The bottom line is that American demand for secure, domestically produced oil requires drilling in ever more inhospitable, dangerous and environmentally sensitive areas that tests the boundaries of established technologies. "Energy independence", free from reliance on foreign supplies, is one of the holy grails of American policymakers.
The underlying cause of the financial meltdown was not greedy, profit-before-safety bankers, though they undoubtedly played a very full part, nor was it lax and inappropriate regulation, though that, too, was plainly at fault; rather, it was excessive demand for credit, actively encouraged by public policy.
Already, President Obama has halted further deep-water development � this less than two months after sanctioning a new swathe of offshore acreage to address energy security concerns.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/jeremy-warner/7779914/Dont-blame-BP-Gulf-of-Mexico-oil-spill-is-Americas-fault.html
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kabrams

Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Location: your Dad's house
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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Does he consider himself a Tea Partier, a Republican or something else? I don't quite have a grasp on his position. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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kabrams

Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Location: your Dad's house
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:19 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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What is the point of this? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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kabrams wrote: |
What is the point of this? |
You mentioned your ignorance on a topic, and I thought I would show you the easiest way to get an overview on most any topic.
It's really amazing.. it's called a "Google search." Some are calling it just a fad, but I think it's here to stay. |
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kabrams

Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Location: your Dad's house
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Posted: Sun May 30, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject: Re: Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land |
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Senior wrote: |
kabrams wrote: |
What is the point of this? |
You mentioned your ignorance on a topic, and I thought I would show you the easiest way to get an overview on most any topic.
It's really amazing.. it's called a "Google search." Some are calling it just a fad, but I think it's here to stay. |
Why are you being a jerk?
ETA: Never mind. Don't want to derail the post.
Question still remains for those of you who, you know, want to discuss current events. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Location: I walk along the avenue
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: |
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I agree that a google search would not really give the kind of answer that kabrams was looking for. Obviously, Rand Paul is a member of the Republican party, and he seems to have a lot of support from Tea Partiers. I think what kabrams was getting at was how does he really regard himself apart from whatever labels are attached to him, which is not the kind of thing you're gonna just find out by googling his name and scanning a few articles.
Presumably, kabrams was hoping that posters who have followed his career might be able to shed some light on the nuances of RP's position. I don't think I could be a lot of help, since I've only been following him with any degree of attention for the past few weeks. However, it seems to me that the picture which is shaping up of him ideologically is that he is a fairly consistent libertarain, allied to the Republican party for strategic reasons. Others may have a different view. |
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The Happy Warrior
Joined: 10 Feb 2010
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:39 am Post subject: |
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As of now, I am planning to vote for Rand Paul to replace the Senate seat left vacant by Senator Bunning. This is contrast to almost all the liberals who complain about Rand Paul on this site, who will not have the chance to vote against Rand Paul, for the simple reason that they do not reside in Kentucky.
I don't really give a flying ---- about his positions on the oil spill or the Civil Rights Act. Slightly more important to determining his fitness as an elected official will be his commitment to charity, namely, he founded the Southern Kentucky Lions Eye Clinic.
But all of these are distractions compared to his core position: He's against the spiraling Federal deficit and he's against expanding the government when the government can't pay its current accounts. Sure, he supports coal, restricting immigration, and even the horse industry. I wonder why? Could it be that his electorate isn't Southern California? But as far as genuinely national positions go, he wants to curb the power of the Federal Reserve, is against the bailouts, and actually talks about curbing Federal spending rather than bringing back goodies for his district (yes, he'll probably do what his father does: attach goodies to bills and then vote against them).
He's not a very effective national politician. He can't pivot and twist quite as artfully as Obama can. He's not a very compelling public speaker. He'd be boring except that he says silly things sometimes, and this is pounced upon by the party supporting increasingly unpopular Obama (you know, the guy who's job it is to clean up the oil spill).
But he cares about the issues I care about. So I will vote for him. Now, go ahead. Resume with heckling the libertarian la-la loony. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Kabrams wrote: |
I don't quite have a grasp on his position |
I would place him on the right of the GOP, personally. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 8:48 am Post subject: |
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The Libertarian position on the oil spill is that BP and other individuals and businesses directly involved in this incident or accident are liable for ALL costs of the cleanup. It doesn't matter whether it was due to negligence, a deliberate failure to follow proper engineering standards in ocean drilling (which is probably the case here), just an accident or an act of god, BP (and others ... ) are liable for ALL costs.
This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."
Any determination of blame could and should be used in determining if any criminal charges will be filed.
Of course, if cleaned up properly and if the parties are required to pay as they would be in a Libertarian world, there could be many bankruptcies at the end of this mess.
In the socialist world of regulation that we live in, there are limitations on liability that will exculpate or at least drastically reduce the financial cost for many individuals and businesses. The oil will not be cleaned up as much as possible, and taxpayers will be forced to pay the private costs.
Since most managers, workers, and many of the businesses will not be exposed to any financial cost due to this accident in our socialist world of regulated businesses, they take risks which can lead to financial rewards if successful but, for many of the actors, carry no financial risk.
Sounds a lot like what just happened with the banks and the Federal Reserve.
Government regulation always fails.
Liberty is the answer. |
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kabrams

Joined: 15 Mar 2008 Location: your Dad's house
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Posted: Mon May 31, 2010 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote: |
I don't think I could be a lot of help, since I've only been following him with any degree of attention for the past few weeks. However, it seems to me that the picture which is shaping up of him ideologically is that he is a fairly consistent libertarain, allied to the Republican party for strategic reasons. Others may have a different view. |
I saw an interview of him on The Rachel Maddow show and he seemed to use a lot of the Tea Party slogans, etc. so I wasn't sure if he was actually trying to create a viable Tea Party...party or if he was just running on the Tea Party platform while maintaining his status as a Republican.
I felt his thoughts on the Civil Rights Act were interesting, although I don't completely agree with him for obvious reasons.
Some of the articles and blogs I've read seem split on whether or not he truly feels like he's a member of the GOP or is a libertarian RINO.
He certainly is someone I'm going to have to keep my eye on. |
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