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Rand Paul's Libertarian La-La Land
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Pluto



Joined: 19 Dec 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like what is being described here is what is referred to as Value at Risk (�VaR�) models as opposed to game theory. VaR modeling is used very often in finance and risk management.

VaR models give a timeline into some point in the future. For example, continuing on some course of action for the next six months will give us 99% chance of profitability. Conversely, there is a 1% chance the course of action will result in a loss or no profitability.

VaR models are extremely useful and can work quite well, except there is a catch. We can measure the risk, but the problem is we don�t know the degree of risk that falls into that unfortunate 1%. It could mean anything from breaking even to losing one�s shirt to a catastrophic oil spill. In other words, VaR doesn�t measure the cost of risk.

Here is an excellent article from the NYT magazine, far too long to post here. It is a good read.

What to do about risk and uncertainty is what insurance is for. Every human endeavor comes with a degree of risk, unfortunately. It�s just a matter of how we want to proceed.
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kotakji



Joined: 23 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Note Senior: that I am not against the offshore drilling as I believe the overall benefits do outweigh the costs even if individual firms may end up losing the bet. I am actually interested in the hypothetical extreme situations as a lot of the work I have done in the past has involved determining government responses to epidemics, nuclear proliferation etc.

You are right, I was anthropomorphizing the probability function as the second actor- I probably should have used the term 'risk assessment' instead of game theory. Yet, the 'game' played remains essentially the same. Once a game theory equation is set up, the human/animal behaviors are often expressed as probabilistic functions.

Anyways, any thoughts on how to deal with that hypothetical?

Edit: Thanks Pluto, I was actually typing up my own corrections when you posted. My original hypothetical still stands because in the situation I presented, risk pooling (insurance) is an irrational decision. There is no critical path that ends up with a winner.
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kotakji



Joined: 23 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:

The free market refused to build these due to this very risk you describe. Investors said "NO WAY," the insurance industry said "NO WAY." and the electric power industry would have had to wait.


Note, however, it wasn't until after the accidents that this occurred and the companies continued to operate the existing facilities. In fact it was not the free market that made nuclear a bad bet but rather government regulations:

http://www.brookings.edu/~/media/Files/rc/papers/2004/09environment_nivola/pb138.pdf

The regulations made other sources of energy the better bet. That's an easy economic decision. My hypothetical involves a scenario in which even one critical failure is unthinkable and there is no even remotely equivalent alternative.


Last edited by kotakji on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kotakji wrote:
ontheway wrote:

The free market refused to build these due to this very risk you describe. Investors said "NO WAY," the insurance industry said "NO WAY." and the electric power industry would have had to wait.


Note, however, it wasn't until after the accidents that this occurred and the companies continued to operate the existing facilities. Moreover, there were plenty of safe, viable, and similarly profitable alternatives available. That's an easy economic decision. My hypothetical involves a scenario in which even one critical failure is unthinkable and there is no even remotely equivalent alternative.




Sorry, but this is wrong. Check out the history. The subsidies and insurance limitations were put into place before even one Nuke plant was built.

The free market refused to build any because they are unsafe.

The free market is the optimum protector of the environment, the best way to eliminate pollution and the best way to insure safety. Government always fails. There are no exceptions, just people who haven't studied the facts who support socialism as an ignorant knee-jerk response.
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kotakji



Joined: 23 Oct 2006

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe your fast on the responses! Anyways, the point being that nuclear is not a good example because LNG and Coal were reasonable alternatives and government regulations essentially were the nail in the coffin in terms of cost effectiveness.

[Edit] note that I am wrong with the earlier post with the Brookings link. It was more the competition of other energy sources.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Economic History 101:

wikki wrote:
The Price-Anderson Nuclear Industries Indemnity Act (commonly called the Price-Anderson Act) is a United States federal law, first passed in 1957 and since renewed several times ...

... The Act establishes a no fault insurance-type system in which the first $10 billion is industry-funded as described in the Act (any claims above the $10 billion would be covered by the federal government). At the time of the Act's passing, it was considered necessary as an incentive for the private production of nuclear power � this was because investors were unwilling to accept the then-unquantified risks of nuclear energy without some limitation on their liability.

... The Price-Anderson Act is named for Congressman Charles Melvin Price (D-Ill.) and Senator Clinton Presba Anderson (D-N.M.), both of whom eventually chaired Congress's Joint Committee on Atomic Energy.

The Atomic Energy Act of 1946, which followed the development of nuclear technology during World War II, had created a framework for operation of nuclear plants under government control. The intention of the government was to apply this technology to civilian industry, especially in using nuclear plants to generate electricity. In 1954 the Atomic Energy Act Amendments Act removed the government monopoly on operating nuclear plants by creating a licensing system for private operators.

An experimental power plant was eventually constructed, but private industry expressed grave concern about the prospects for profitable operation of such plants.[citation needed] In particular, companies were concerned[citation needed] about the harm which might be caused to the public in a worst-case nuclear accident.

A nuclear accident of privately held nuclear power appeared to be an impossible barrier since the possible massive magnitude would likely bankrupt any company held responsible, so private companies were not willing to get involved in the nuclear power industry. In addition, it was determined that no insurance company was willing to take on the risk of indemnifying a company against such a huge potential liability, nor could an insurance company make a commitment beyond its own resources to pay. Because of these difficulties, it looked like it would be extremely unlikely that private companies would want to enter the nuclear power industry.



The socialist government did it ...


$10 billion dollar cap. The cap for each company was $560 million. So, no more risk problem ...

Who pays ... the taxpayer ...


Government subsidies are always evil.
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Price-Anderson Act has been criticized by various think tanks and environmental organizations, including Union of Concerned Scientists, Greenpeace International, Public Citizen and the Cato Institute. Public Citizen has been particularly critical of Price-Anderson; it claims that the Act understates the risks inherent in atomic power, does not require reactors to carry adequate insurance, and would therefore result in taxpayers footing most of the bill for a catastrophic accident.[3] An analysis by economists Heyes and Heyes (1998) places the value of the government insurance subsidy at $2.3 million per reactor-year, or $237 million annually.[4] In 2008 the Congressional Budget Office estimated the value of the subsidy at only $600,000 per reactor per year. [3] Due to the structure of the liability immunities as the number of nuclear plants in operation is reduced the public liability in case of an accident goes up.[5]

The free government-granted insurance given to for-profit nuclear plant operators in the Price-Anderson Act has been used as an example of corporate welfare by Ralph Nader.[5]



When libertarians, greens, and Ralph Nader agree and unite against the fascist-socialist Ds and Rs it's time to wake up.


And now, to tie up a few loose ends:

Quote:

United States law requires payment of 8 cents per barrel of oil to the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund for all oil imported or produced. For this payment,
operators of offshore oil platforms (among others) are limited in liability to $75 million for damages (which can be paid by the fund),

but are not indemnified from the cost of cleanup. As of 2010, before payouts related to the Deepwater Horizon drilling rig explosion, the fund stood at $1.6 billion


So, the fascist-socialist state has protected BP from the cost of this over agressive, irresponsible "accident" so that they may have to pay for the cleanup but not for any damages. Nice.
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asylum seeker



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans? Or the air for that matter? No libertarian has given me a satisfactory answer to that question yet.


Last edited by asylum seeker on Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Senior



Joined: 31 Jan 2010

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

asylum seeker wrote:
visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans?


Nobodies. And that is where the problems arise.

Privatize the oceans and you won't have these problems.
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asylum seeker



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans?


Nobodies. And that is where the problems arise.

Privatize the oceans and you won't have these problems.


Sell the oceans off to corporations so they can pollute them with impunity- sounds like a great idea.
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chellovek



Joined: 29 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans?


Nobodies. And that is where the problems arise.

Privatize the oceans and you won't have these problems.


While we're at it, let's privatise the air too! Then people can buy air and pollute it as much as they like. If anyone complains at the total mucking up of the air they can say "Well, we bought it, you buy your own air and keep it as clean as you like."
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ontheway



Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chellovek wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans?


Nobodies. And that is where the problems arise.

Privatize the oceans and you won't have these problems.


While we're at it, let's privatise the air too! Then people can buy air and pollute it as much as they like. If anyone complains at the total mucking up of the air they can say "Well, we bought it, you buy your own air and keep it as clean as you like."



Chill-out-o-veck: you display such a lack of logical reasoning ability and lack of understanding of economics and a lack of understanding of property rights.




Yes, we need to privatize all air and water. This would end all deliberate pollution and all the current legal pollution and all pollution caused currently by the socialization of risk. Socialism is the problem.


When you own a piece of private property, it is yours, and no one has the right to pollute your property.

So, if you buy a section of air and a section of water, it won't matter that your neighbor is a business or greedy corporation - they will not be able to pollute their own property legally unless they can contain that pollution on their property without trespassing on their neighbors. This is, of course, impossible ...

You cannot build a pipeline and dump sludge on your neighbor's farm. You cannot back up a dump truck and dump trash on your neighbor's yard.

Likewise, in a free market, you cannot run a pipe up into the air and pollute your neighbor's airspace nor can you build a pipeline into someone's river, pond, lake or sea property or drill a hole in the bottom of the ocean and pollute the water covering your neighbor's submerged lands.

In a free market, legal pollution does not exist.


Socialism is the problem.

Liberty is the answer.



Privatize the air. Privatize the seas.




Eventually, when the world's true greens and environmentalists dump the fascist-socialists and earth nazis who dominate their movements, they will join with the Libertarians who are the true champions of a clean environment and conservation, of sustainable economic growth and peace.

The rEVOLution is underway.


Big government is failing spectacularly every day, and millions of people now recognize that it is government, big fascist-socialist government that has failed in every way: the first and second Great Depressions, all unemployment, the financial disaster of Social Security, inflation and the destruction of the dollar, the Federal Reserve, the income and property taxes, the unbalanced budgets, the failed school systems, the pollution or air, rivers and seas, the wars, violence, the war on drugs, the institutionalization of racism as a permanent fixture in American society by minimum wage laws and anti-discrimination laws that actually cause, perpetuate and require discrimination by race ...

and in millions of ways more, the evil fasicst-socialist government always fails ...


YES. Government always fails ...

(except in one way: it lines the pockets and gives power and privilege to the political classes ... and that is its true purpose and raison d'etre.)
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chellovek



Joined: 29 Feb 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ontheway wrote:
chellovek wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
visitorq wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
Senior wrote:
asylum seeker wrote:
ontheway wrote:


This means in a Libertarian society, every engineer, manager, the rig owner and the operators, the responsible workers, managers and businesses will all use their best efforts to prevent such "accidents."



This sounds a tad idealistic to me. Corporations are profit-driven organizations- if they can save money by cutting corners they will and I don't see how that would magically change in a 'libertarian society'.

Also, If there's no government regulation who forces BP to clean up the mess? What if they say 'no, it's not profitable for our company to clean up the mess, we refuse'?


Jail.


According to what kind of law? I thought libertarians wanted to do away with environmental/pollution laws. What would you charge them with?

You need to understand basic concepts like private property...


Whose private property are the world's oceans?


Nobodies. And that is where the problems arise.

Privatize the oceans and you won't have these problems.


While we're at it, let's privatise the air too! Then people can buy air and pollute it as much as they like. If anyone complains at the total mucking up of the air they can say "Well, we bought it, you buy your own air and keep it as clean as you like."



Chill-out-o-veck: you display such a lack of logical reasoning ability and lack of understanding of economics and a lack of understanding of property rights.




Yes, we need to privatize all air and water. This would end all deliberate pollution and all the current legal pollution and all pollution caused currently by the socialization of risk. Socialism is the problem.


When you own a piece of private property, it is yours, and no one has the right to pollute your property.

So, if you buy a section of air and a section of water, it won't matter that your neighbor is a business or greedy corporation - they will not be able to pollute their own property legally unless they can contain that pollution on their property without trespassing on their neighbors. This is, of course, impossible ...

You cannot build a pipeline and dump sludge on your neighbor's farm. You cannot back up a dump truck and dump trash on your neighbor's yard.

Likewise, in a free market, you cannot run a pipe up into the air and pollute your neighbor's airspace nor can you build a pipeline into someone's river, pond, lake or sea property or drill a hole in the bottom of the ocean and pollute the water covering your neighbor's submerged lands.

In a free market, legal pollution does not exist.


Socialism is the problem.

Liberty is the answer.



Privatize the air. Privatize the seas.




Eventually, when the world's true greens and environmentalists dump the fascist-socialists and earth nazis who dominate their movements, they will join with the Libertarians who are the true champions of a clean environment and conservation, of sustainable economic growth and peace.

The rEVOLution is underway.


Big government is failing spectacularly every day, and millions of people now recognize that it is government, big fascist-socialist government that has failed in every way: the first and second Great Depressions, all unemployment, the financial disaster of Social Security, inflation and the destruction of the dollar, the Federal Reserve, the income and property taxes, the unbalanced budgets, the failed school systems, the pollution or air, rivers and seas, the wars, violence, the war on drugs, the institutionalization of racism as a permanent fixture in American society by minimum wage laws and anti-discrimination laws that actually cause, perpetuate and require discrimination by race ...

and in millions of ways more, the evil fasicst-socialist government always fails ...


YES. Government always fails ...

(except in one way: it lines the pockets and gives power and privilege to the political classes ... and that is its true purpose and raison d'etre.)


Laughing

Love it! No logic or knowledge of economics! Forum trolling/facetiousness aside, I have a Masters in Economics and know perfectly well what all you loons/autistics are talking about Shocked
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visitorq



Joined: 11 Jan 2008

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chellovek wrote:
I have a Masters in Economics

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? Your "credentials" impress a whole lot less than ontheway's taking the time to reply at length. Perhaps you could at least try to respond with an actual argument?
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bacasper



Joined: 26 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

visitorq wrote:
chellovek wrote:
I have a Masters in Economics

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? Your "credentials" impress a whole lot less than ontheway's taking the time to reply at length. Perhaps you could at least try to respond with an actual argument?

He was obviously being satirical. He just forgot to use an emoticon. (God, I hope I am not wrong about that!)
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