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theshadowranger
Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Location: Bude/ MS/ USA
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 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 12:11 pm Post subject: What to do about a bad reference. |
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I have only worked at one school in Korea. It was my first year and things didn't go well. Now my problem is, that if anyone else contact my old school they will get a bad reference. What can I do about this issue?
I want to list that I have teaching experience but any school will insist on calling my previous school.
Should I not list previous experience or just hope that someone will be willing to offer me a second chance? |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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You could have a friend call them up and pretend to be another school owner calling to ask for a reference about you. He could ask typical questions that employers might ask. If the old boss gives you a good review then it's probably ok to list him as a reference.
I'm not sure if you can just leave that job off your CV. If you're not in Korea now, I suppose you could try. I think that they can check to see whether or not you've worked here before (but if they don't think you've been here they might not do it). I'm not sure if they can check who you worked for. Does anyone else know if they can find out who you worked for?
If you really have to put it down and give them a reference and the old boss is going to give a bad one, then there are still some options. You could just say that you don't have the number. If it was a hogwan (other than a franchise branch) then it's likely that they won't find it. If worst worst, and you really need the old boss to give a reference, you could always do what other people have done (including Koreans). i.e. Give them the phone number of a friend who can answer the phone and pretend to be your previous employer. It depends on how desperate you are, or if you have ethical problems with lying.
EDIT: Giving a false reference IS lying (and for me, it would cross the line of what's ethical). I'm just saying that some people DO do it and don't consider it unethical, depending on the situation. I'm not condoning it.
Last edited by Troglodyte on Sat Jun 05, 2010 10:10 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Give them the phone number of a friend who can answer the phone and pretend to be your previous employer. |
In the past month, certain NETs have revealed the following on Dave's:
Lying about references. Check
Unemployable in home country. Check
Low GPAs. Check
Forging degrees. Check
Suffers from mental illness. Check
Concealing criminal background. Check
Alcohol and drug abuse. Check
Running from debt. Check
Smells bad. Check
Korean parents must be happy/grateful to know that their children spend their days under the tutelage of only the best of the best!  |
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bobranger
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Location: masan
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
In the past month, certain NETs have revealed the following on Dave's:
Lying about references. Check
Unemployable in home country. Check
Low GPAs. Check
Forging degrees. Check
Suffers from mental illness. Check
Concealing criminal background. Check
Alcohol and drug abuse. Check
Running from debt. Check
Smells bad. Check |
excellent point lol
Anyway, you might try this:
Call your old boss and ask if he'd be willing to reach an agreement with you on what she'll say to future reference calls. It's at least worth a shot�the worst that can happen is that he'll say no. When you call, say something like this: "I'm concerned that the reference you're providing for me is preventing me from getting work. Could we work something out so that this isn't standing in my way?" Also, if relevant, it won't hurt to soften her up a little first by telling her that you've learned from the situation, appreciate the chance she gave you, etc.
If all else fails, you may need to simply warn prospective new employers that the reference won't be a good one. And you do want to give this warning, because it allows you to provide context and framing for what they might be about to hear. If you don't, they may never tell you that the reference is why they rejected you, so the time to speak up is before they place the call. How you explain it depends on exactly what's behind the bad reference, but your goal is to put it in the best possible light. For instance, if your relationship with your boss soured after a particular event, you could say something like, "By the way, I had glowing reviews from my boss at that job, but our relationship became strained toward the end and I worry that it could color that reference." Be prepared for questions about what caused the strain, of course.
You can also offer up former coworkers, students, and others who can speak to your work, and even old copies of lesson and materials you created if you have them. Sometimes the mere offer of these things will provide the reassurance employers are looking for.
Also you might want to consider teaching in Korea is not for you. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bobranger wrote: |
Call your old boss and ask if he'd be willing to reach an agreement with you on what she'll say to future reference calls. It's at least worth a shot�the worst that can happen is that he'll say no.
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I can thing of worse things than the former boss saying "no." His ex-boss may agree to give him a good review and then gave a bad one anyway out of spite. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:05 am Post subject: |
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| It doesn't hurt to have someone call and pretend to be a school needing a reference to see what they say. Then at least you will know for sure how bad the reference might be. I like Bob's suggestion of going to the former boss and trying to do what you can to turn things in your favor. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Give them the phone number of a friend who can answer the phone and pretend to be your previous employer. |
In the past month, certain NETs have revealed the following on Dave's:
Lying about references. Check
Unemployable in home country. Check
Low GPAs. Check
Forging degrees. Check
Suffers from mental illness. Check
Concealing criminal background. Check
Alcohol and drug abuse. Check
Running from debt. Check
Smells bad. Check
Korean parents must be happy/grateful to know that their children spend their days under the tutelage of only the best of the best! |
The way things are headed I'm sure that there will be a database someday that will help schools and other employers to avoid employing all the above. Although this wouldn't necessarily eliminate someone like Hitler (Iron Cross war hero, for the most part on the surface squeeky clean ) and would definately weed out someone like FDR (crooked as hell) or Churchill (incompatent alcoholic, fired from many jobs) or even Lincoln (mentally ill melancholic and very eccentric). Churchill was so drunk half the time when he was prime minister he didn't get up untill noon. Lincoln's cabinet placed guards outside his presidential office that would routinely look in to make sure he wasn't attempting suicide.
I'm sure everybody who teaches english is familiar with the common adult lesson warm up that uses all the above. |
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KoreanAmbition
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Give them the phone number of a friend who can answer the phone and pretend to be your previous employer. |
In the past month, certain NETs have revealed the following on Dave's:
Lying about references. Check
Korean parents must be happy/grateful to know that their children spend their days under the tutelage of only the best of the best! |
Madoka,
I think you're being ridiculous. After reading your post, I would suggest that you please stay in the English profession and just stick to editing. (While I agree with your comments regarding REAL cases of bad behaviour, this is by no means part of that list.) Your comment has no place in an actual business environment if you think that there is anything wrong with the advice Troglodyte gave.
Do you think "secret-shoppers" walk into a store they are monitoring and announce, "Umm, everyone, please listen up. I'm here to monitor your work... but instead of watching you from an unbiased viewpoint, I'm telling you that I'm here so that you can do everything properly and then I can write that you did a good job."
Do you think people that want to start a business go into a competitor's company and say, "Hey there, I'm here to look around and see how many of your good ideas I can steal." No, they pretend to be a client and then look around to learn. It's completely normal, legal, and what anyone would do if they'd like to succeed.
OP,
Troglodyte's suggestion is outstanding. That is far and away the best way to get the truth about your employer.
As Troglodyte mentioned in his second post... coming to an "agreement" with your ex-boss could result in him telling you that everything is fine, to your face, but then behind your back doing whatever he wanted to do. Isn't that basically how everything runs here on an everyday basis? Isn't everything all about smiling to someone's face but actually that might not be their true feelings? Your ex-boss might just say whatever he can to get you away from him. He wasn't happy with your work when you were there, and trust me, he's got not real interest in spending any more seconds of his life talking to you now.
Now, don't go having your "friend" call your ex-boss pretending to be a real company... that's wrong. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| KoreanAmbition wrote: |
| I think you're being ridiculous. After reading your post, I would suggest that you please stay in the English profession and just stick to editing. (While I agree with your comments regarding REAL cases of bad behaviour, this is by no means part of that list.) Your comment has no place in an actual business environment if you think that there is anything wrong with the advice Troglodyte gave. |
So you claim it is okay to give your future employer a friend's phone number and have that friend pretend to be your old boss so that you can get a good recommendation? You see nothing wrong about commiting fraud/lying? And I'm the one being ridiculous. . . 
Your response only goes to show the lack of ethics amongst some NETs. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 2:07 am Post subject: |
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| KoreanAmbition wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Give them the phone number of a friend who can answer the phone and pretend to be your previous employer. |
In the past month, certain NETs have revealed the following on Dave's:
Lying about references. Check
Korean parents must be happy/grateful to know that their children spend their days under the tutelage of only the best of the best! |
Madoka,
I think you're being ridiculous. After reading your post, I would suggest that you please stay in the English profession and just stick to editing. (While I agree with your comments regarding REAL cases of bad behaviour, this is by no means part of that list.) Your comment has no place in an actual business environment if you think that there is anything wrong with the advice Troglodyte gave.
Do you think "secret-shoppers" walk into a store they are monitoring and announce, "Umm, everyone, please listen up. I'm here to monitor your work... but instead of watching you from an unbiased viewpoint, I'm telling you that I'm here so that you can do everything properly and then I can write that you did a good job."
Do you think people that want to start a business go into a competitor's company and say, "Hey there, I'm here to look around and see how many of your good ideas I can steal." No, they pretend to be a client and then look around to learn. It's completely normal, legal, and what anyone would do if they'd like to succeed.
OP,
Troglodyte's suggestion is outstanding. That is far and away the best way to get the truth about your employer.
As Troglodyte mentioned in his second post... coming to an "agreement" with your ex-boss could result in him telling you that everything is fine, to your face, but then behind your back doing whatever he wanted to do. Isn't that basically how everything runs here on an everyday basis? Isn't everything all about smiling to someone's face but actually that might not be their true feelings? Your ex-boss might just say whatever he can to get you away from him. He wasn't happy with your work when you were there, and trust me, he's got not real interest in spending any more seconds of his life talking to you now.
Now, don't go having your "friend" call your ex-boss pretending to be a real company... that's wrong. |
Oh wait, I need to save your response for posterity when you realize how you put your foot in your mouth and try to edit/delete it like you have in the past! |
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KoreanAmbition
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:20 am Post subject: |
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Madoka,
Can you read? You're an English teacher.... but seems you can't. Maybe THAT should worry the parents you were talking about up above.
I'm glad you put the quote up... now you can try to read it properly.
The suggestion was NOT to lie. The suggestion was to have someone contact your OLD boss to pretend to be someone and find out what type of reference they would give.
The OP wasn't recommended to GIVE a reference... the recommendation was to ASK about the reference. Do you comprehend the difference?
THERE WAS NOTHING SAID ABOUT FALSIFYING A REFERENCE.
It's SAD that you're a teacher and can't even read properly. Not only did you make the error the first time... you made the error REPEATEDLY, including copying the quotes after an explanation was given.
I suggest you QUOTE THIS POST FOR POSTERITY and then read it over and over until you can understand the intelligent suggestion given to the OP.
What cereal box did you get your degree out of? At least you only paid $5 for it... that's about all it's worth.
Last edited by KoreanAmbition on Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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KoreanAmbition
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Oh wait, I need to save your response for posterity when you realize how you put your foot in your mouth and try to edit/delete it like you have in the past! [/quote]
If these forums didn't have so many FREAKS on them, like you, that would go back and search the net for personal information...then I'd leave my posts.
Alas, freaks like you exist... so I guess when I think twice, I make sure I take anything with some form of personal information off the board.
But don't worry about me deleting anything, you should just worry about brushing up on your reading skills. After all, you want to give those parents the best for their children...and right now, you're not coming very close. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| KA, I think I'm in agreement with you. You are saying it is ok to call to have someone check a reference, but not to pretend to be one. Right? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:36 am Post subject: |
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OP,
My two cents on this...
As others have stated: try to come to an agreement with your previous owner and if possible get a letter of reference from them. If you are unable to secure this and you put the job on your resume, your new employer may check it out and it may indeed come back to bit you in the butt.
You may have to remove the job from your resume if you cannot secure a proper reference or are unwilling to risk getting a bad reference from your previous employer.
I know this is not what you may have wanted to read here but thats the way things go sometimes.
On another issue...Madoka is 100% right about what SOME Foreign Teachers do (fake credentials, fake references, lie on their resume and so on). But the OP has NOTHING to do with this. All the OP is trying to do is find a way to get a clean reference from a previous employer. I see no intent to falsify anything on his part. |
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KoreanAmbition
Joined: 03 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 5:55 am Post subject: |
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MilwauwkieDave...
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
Patrick,
In this situation, the problem with a written letter of recommendation is that the hiring committee still might call that reference before the final decision. So getting a written letter doesn't ease the concerns of the OP. Instead, it just makes him worry MORE because he has to worry that he'll move through the process and get rejected at the final stage of the process.
You didn't talk about Troglodyte's suggestion. I believe it's a good one.
Last edited by KoreanAmbition on Sat Jun 05, 2010 7:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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