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pkang0202

Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: US Healthcare supporters, why don't you look north? |
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http://www.cnbc.com/id/37451253
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Soaring Costs Force Canada to Reassess Health Model
Pressured by an aging population and the need to rein in budget deficits, Canada's provinces are taking tough measures to curb health care costs, a trend that could erode the principles of the popular state-funded system. |
Canada's population is a fraction of the US. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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We have looked North and we dont like some of the things we see. As bad as the U.s. system is a lot of research is done in the U.s. Not so much in other countries. Canada's system was the
"example" for decades , but there is trouble in paradise. Perhaps an mixture is the way to go. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Canadian healthcare is very good, at least compared to the UK, where it took the most centrally government planned healthcare system in the developed world to achieve the longest waiting times, the worst cancer survivial statistics and most infectious hospitals in Europe. |
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kinerry
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Canadian healthcare is very good, at least compared to the UK, where it took the most centrally government planned healthcare system in the developed world to achieve the longest waiting times, the worst cancer survivial statistics and most infectious hospitals in Europe. |
As someone who only had healthcare when I finally reached Korea...I'd rather wait in line than die not getting the chance to wait at all.
Everyone also conveniently forgets that private health care still exists in countries with public health care. The best still goes to those with the money to afford it. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: |
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kinerry wrote: |
Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Canadian healthcare is very good, at least compared to the UK, where it took the most centrally government planned healthcare system in the developed world to achieve the longest waiting times, the worst cancer survivial statistics and most infectious hospitals in Europe. |
As someone who only had healthcare when I finally reached Korea...I'd rather wait in line than die not getting the chance to wait at all.
Everyone also conveniently forgets that private health care still exists in countries with public health care. The best still goes to those with the money to afford it. |
The principle remains: every time the government coercively takes your money (immoral) and wastes it on bureaucracy and/or poor planning it leads to worse service and rationing. At the same time it leaves you with less money in your pocket and more taxes to pay (happens incrementally like the frog in hot water analogy), which makes you more and more dependent on the government over time. Eventually you're broke, unable to afford private health care (which has long been a cartel in the US anyway, thanks to government regulation - there is no free market) and you become deluded into feeling thankful to to your benevolent nanny government for taking care of you. This is socialism in a nutshell.
Personally I'd rather not pay into the system at all and receive no care than be forced to pay much higher taxes and wait 10 months to receive a simple treatment or get an aspirin for a heart attack. I'd also rather be able save up my own money to pay for any life-saving procedure (IF it is needed) rather than piss it all away on mandatory insurance. But hey, that's just me. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009 Location: UK
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: |
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kinerry wrote: |
I'd rather wait in line than die not getting the chance to wait at all. |
And what about the people who die "waiting in line" who otherwise might have been able to afford a health insurance policy with the 10% or so of their earnings forcibly taken? Being stuck with the NHS is a problem that faces many relatively wealthy Britons who aren't quite wealthy enough to purchase private health insurance.
I absolutely beg you to read Losing Ground by Charles Murray and The Welfare State We're In by James Bartholomew - US and UK studies, respectively, on government works with good intentions to have had extraordinarily dire results. You'll never look at a politician the same ever again. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:56 am Post subject: |
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Healthcare costs are going up everywhere not just in Canada.
Canadian's on average live 3 and half years longer than Americans with their socailized Medicine.
I know three people in the states that were sold unnessary surgeries. One of these people died (my aunt). In the states doctors are medical salesman that if you have good insurance will sell you medical services that you may or maynot need. In Canada medicine is need based. Need based is the smartest way to go. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:08 am Post subject: |
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No_hite_pls wrote: |
Canadian's on average live 3 and half years longer than Americans with there socailized Medicine.
I know three people in the states that were sold unnessary surgeries. One of these people died (my aunt). In the states doctors are medical salesman that if you have good insurance will sell you medical services that you may or maynot need. In Canada medicine is need based. Need based is the smartest way to go. |
No it isn't. Supply and demand is far better. In a free market (which the US doesn't have), the quality of care would be higher and the price cheaper. Everyone would be able to afford care and there would be no shortage of doctors (no permits necessary). If anyone sells you a fraudulent product (or a botched surgery) then they would be legally liable to damages and/or criminal charges. Would it be perfect? No, but far better than socialized health care. |
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Captain Corea

Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Location: Seoul
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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I prefer the Canadian system. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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The Canadian system is certainly preferable in many ways but it is a dying system thats target is cut rate care.. the U.s. system while deeply flawed does produce cutting edge technology and if you can afford it terrific care. What has really damaged the U.S. system is the aging of the baby boomer generation. It has choked the system. Letting the government control my healthcare scares me. Governments change and politicians are not trustworthy. |
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Moldy Rutabaga

Joined: 01 Jul 2003 Location: Ansan, Korea
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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It irritates the hell out of me that American Republicans, who've never been there and usually can't name the Canadian prime minister one week after an election (e.g. Sarah Palin in October 2008), are suddenly experts in Canadian healthcare when it suits their purposes. Issue carpetbaggers.
The system has worked for nearly forty years, offering imperfect but decent care at low cost, or no cost for people below a certain income level. We take it for granted like other countries take mail delivery for granted. As costs rise, the system is naturally shifting to adjust and to find efficiencies. No one in Canada would let healthcare die. Trust me. It is the third rail of Canadian politics, like handing over Dokdo to the Japanese. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006 Location: China
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Say goodbye to the third rail. When the money runs out it is amazing what you will do without. times change it is a forty year old system. Not a Republican, but understand larger populations mean more money. Canada loses about 140 doctors a year who move to the U.S. Name a medical advance that has come from Canada's system. It is dependent on others for research. As cost escalate services go down. No politician wants to bring new taxes but they are coming. The Canadian government ha done a good job proganda wise touting its health care but that day is passing. |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007 Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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In America doctors are salesman. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:48 am Post subject: |
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No_hite_pls wrote: |
In America doctors are salesman. |
1) This is not true. Do you claim to speak for all doctors? Surely some are in it for the money, but many are in it to help people (not that the two are incompatible). Many doctors do charity work, but they still need to eat like everyone else.
2) Even if they were all salesmen, so what? In a free market (without government regulation) supply would keep up with demand and everyone would have access to health care at a cheap price (or a more expensive price for those willing/able to pay for top doctors). There would be no shortage of doctors. As long as the doctors aren't doing anything illegal (like removing your kidneys when you go in for an appendectomy), there's nothing wrong with getting paid well for providing quality service. In a free market you are free to choose your doctor, and if they cause you any harm due to incompetence, they can be sued for damages. This is pretty straightforward. |
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kinerry
Joined: 01 Jun 2009
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Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:02 am Post subject: |
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visitorq wrote: |
No_hite_pls wrote: |
Canadian's on average live 3 and half years longer than Americans with there socailized Medicine.
I know three people in the states that were sold unnessary surgeries. One of these people died (my aunt). In the states doctors are medical salesman that if you have good insurance will sell you medical services that you may or maynot need. In Canada medicine is need based. Need based is the smartest way to go. |
No it isn't. Supply and demand is far better. In a free market (which the US doesn't have), the quality of care would be higher and the price cheaper. Everyone would be able to afford care and there would be no shortage of doctors (no permits necessary). If anyone sells you a fraudulent product (or a botched surgery) then they would be legally liable to damages and/or criminal charges. Would it be perfect? No, but far better than socialized health care. |
Incorrect, by definition health care does not qualify for the free market because of the mis-matched end goals. Consumers want to stay healthy and debt free, health-care providers want to turn a profit.
Health care providers make more money when you are denied service, and you can't exactly change providers because any of them that don't do the same thing can't compete. I can't get insurance at all in the US because I have a pre-existing condition.
As for rationing...what in life isn't? That's a pretty lousy meme.
Did you even spend 10 seconds thinking about what you said?
Health care is more of a public good; like the highway system, or the legal system, or the military (which clearly aren't being rationed). |
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