Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Stunted Wookie]

No where did I say that TKD blackbelts are no good at self defence. I will state it again though that TKD is NOT considered practical for self defence. Are there capable TKDoers...of course there are. As well I have met men who can knock the shit out of two or three at once without having any formal training. It is individual.
However it must be clarified the difference between the two types of training. Fitness and combat.

You can bridge the gap, you can wear the white jammies and blindly follow some mundane 'warrior code' dogma if you wish.....
If you are training for a purpose...self development, fitness, competition, self defense then there are systems and teachers who cater to that. Many teachers I think teach the art form (yes I believe it is and art) as an extention of their personality.

Getting back to my point....
TKD teaches a competition form of Martial arts, its great for fitness, yet the average practitioner is not exposed to the elements of practical defense.
Look in your own school and see the students drop their hands when throwing a kick.

[Thomas]

Posted: Fri May 09, 2003 3:59 pm Post subject: arts

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"No where did I say that TKD blackbelts are no good at self defence. I will state it again though that TKD is NOT considered practical for self defence. "

Judging by your accompliishments within the martial arts, I am still surprised to see you paint all of TKD as being impractical for self defense. You should know that each style is only as good as its teachers and schools. Some of the TKD schools that I have trained in do teach mainly sport TKD and do so very well. Other TKD schools that I have trained in teach sparring, forms, and self defence all very well. The current school that I am in (1994-1997, 2001-present) teaches self defence very well. Self defence techniques are required on tests from yellow belt and up. We supplement our TKD with some hapkido and MMA techniques (approved and listed in our Grandmaster's TKD curriculum). Ours is not an "odd ball" school. It has franchises all over New York State, and they follow the same curriculum. In fact, the Grandmaster Sam Kim is the President of the New York State TKD Union.
The individual student, school, and instructor are more important than the style or system. Any style of martial art can be used effectively for self defence as long as the INDIVIDUAL is trained well.

[Thomas]

"You can bridge the gap, you can wear the white jammies and blindly follow some mundane 'warrior code' dogma if you wish..... "
I will reply to this, although I hope it was aid 'toungue in cheek'. In my personal opinion, training in the martial arts should be tempered with the philosophy of control, humility, and restraint. That is what makes a true martial artist. Anyone can learn a bunch of mixed techniques that will make you a tough guy on the street. So what? It would still make that person a glorified street thug, not a martial artist. (Or perhaps, at the higher levels of boxing, wrestling and such, a professional fighter, not a martial artist.)
Some people who train in one certain style may get brainwashed into only thinking their one style is the best. That's okay until that person starts denigrating other styles. One of the first things I learned as a white belt was to accept all styles and practioners... if you choose to dislike someone, dislike them for the person they are, not the style they follow.
Judging from your long list of accomplishments (I presume most of them were in the ? style you have trained in for 14 years), I wonder if you have only concentrated on the fighting arts, or on the philosophical side of your chosen style.

[Stunted Wookie]

You mention your school with franchases all over New York State. Are you speaking from your experiences about TKD stateside or in Korea? Two different areas I reckon.

I paint TKD in general to be impractical for self defense because of my expereinces. I have trained in Canada, Korea with TKD as well I have watched, studied, fought in the ring against many TKD stylists. When opened up to international (NKA, WUKO) rules which allows sweeps, multiple striking, grabbing..generally(The only way for me to speak of my experiences) TKD competitors fair poorly.
Why?
The development is not there to deal with the varied actions of free combat.
Each style caters to different methods. In Uechi we practice body conditioning, and self defense..This style is not practical for competition. Too slow( focus on protection and blocking..not great for competition rules), traditional training lacks. I study TKD as an add on to develop foot speed, a well rounded kicking arsenal.
A mixed training schedule is better of course....but thats not TKD is it?
no.

[Thomas]

(Stunted wookie:)I see your points and apologize for any insults or bad feelings that may have been passed along.
I am happy with my style. I studied TKD in the US and in Korea and in my case, it is a viable system of self defence. In addition, many of the TKD practioners I work (have worked with) have done well in competition. Grnated, this is my own experience and I recommend people interested in studying martial arts in Korea to check out a few different schools and choose the one they think is best for them (some are good, some are not). Good luck.

[Stunted Wookie]

Checking out a number of schools before you decide is sound advice.
Also check into the aspects of the numerous styles in Korea to help choose the discipline right for you.

[Squaffy]

Not TKD, but Zen Judo - it took me 8 years back in the UK to earn a black belt. I was a brown belt for 4 years as the age limit to obtain a black belt was in the way. 4th dan now for Judo. Am getting into Kung-Fu now, like the 1 inch punch thing, but just a mere green belt at the moment. Great exercise though. Also, I've noticed that TKD seems to use weapons - is that really going to help you out of trouble on the streets?

It should not be easy to earn a black belt.

[rapier]

Easy to get a black belt? Probably , because in korea you can buy anything. If you pay for lessons, surely you're entitled to one? A bit like the hogwan: "i'm paying for my kid to have lessons, so why can't they speak it?". Unfortunately we aren't able to program people by inserting a new "black belt chip" or "fluent English" microchip yet. But one day we'll all have instant satisfaction..

[satnitespecial]

This TKD debate is really interesting. I agree that at the end of the day it comes down to what the individual makes of his/her training. When I first heard of friends securing Black Belts after eight months I was floored. However, in regards to individual differences, Bruce lee once said; a fighter a real fighter will keep on coming at you no matter what you do to them. It's a good yardstick I think. So to each their own. Actually, when I think of my friend, she played the dumb foreigner at her Black Belt grading until the judging panel agreed all because she didn't want to cut her lovely fingernails, I still laugh when I think of it. In hindsight, most people do the hard yards but due to professional career demands eventually allow their training to fall by the wayside. Maybe earning a Black belt within this ROK system is fine as it is after all the basics. Certainly get beaten up a lot less.

Like the other posters, I've had practice in a number of fighting forms too. The only problem is many techniques dealt with self-defense techniques that maim and kill, even converting money into razor blades, etc so avoiding potential 'problems" is really imperative as this stuff is useless to me.

I however really enjoy the common no big dealness of the roundhouse kick in Korea. The koreans reall have the counter-techniques down to a fine art. In club sparring these days, I've adapted to sharpening up my sweeps and scissor takedowns, less mucking around and a good opportunity to experiment with different timing. Of course, I'm not sure how TKD would fare against kickboxers but that said, the element of surprise without telegraphing intent is 90% ot the advantage.

One of my drinking buddies(she) is from a soviet state country, when I asked her once as to how much time it would take to fight someone she said "it's all over in seconds". I guess the standards of living are very harsh in some countries compared to others.

It's really good to hang with people who understand these things as it really is another level. Thanks for opening this post, it's good to hear that there are a lot of international level players in Korea.

Anyway, I could go on for ages and will always love the fighting arts in it's myriad of expressions, the ultimate game of physical chess. Long live cerebral cortex programming.

May you all continue to develop to your highest potential.

[Keepongoing]

hapkido and kumdo? I would like to take some kumdo classes but have no idea where they are offered

[rok_the-boat]

In the UK it is typically at least 5-7 years to BB in many arts. Some are a little faster but many are frowned upon. Even then, after such a time, there are some in the UK who are still not that good - some schools just promote 'on time' - it is just that the 'time' it takes is a little longer (than in Korea). In fact, many long-timers in the UK are not that good whereas long-timers in Korea usually are - although there are a LOT less of them. It's the short timers where Korean falls short - BB is often meaningless here. THE MAJOR problem in Korea for TKD is that it is a KID'S art today. Adults just don't do it - in fact, it is a kid's creche.

[the_beaver]

Everybody ignores my post.

In Korea a black belt, by design, does not carry the same import of a black belt back home.

It's not because they're shooting people through the ranks.

Back home a first degree black belt is a teacher. Here a fourth degree black belt can be a teacher.

To get a black belt back home takes around 6 or 7 years (if I remember correctly).

To get a fourth degree black belt here takes around 6 or 7 years.

[rok_the-boat]

Beaver is right - 1st Dan back home is equivallent of 4th Dan here in terms of skill and teaching ability.

Problem is though, that the 1st Dan in the West is usually still training and learning whereas the 4th Dan in Korea thinks he is king and sits back and has his 'juniors' do the class. After a few years he gets worse, whereas the guy in the West is still improving.

Another main difference is in motivation - Westerners are self-motivated - many Korean students need / demand kicking into line, and if you push too hard, as say in the warm-up, then they turn up late and eventually ... quit. The staying power here is a lot less than in the West. Also, the 'job' is a major interference for Korean adults.