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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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 Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
Besides. Wealth is completely in your mind. It's more than just your pay check. You can become wealthy if you want to. There is NOTHING stopping you. Except the limitations in your own mind. |
The is truly the most false line you have ever written, it is patently ABSURD that this is tru, now some MAY be able to make it rich on a fluke but but not everyone how wishes to be rich, even works for it will EVER become rich.
This line shows just how brainwashed you are by this system.
And there are literally DOZENS of things that stop 99 percent of us from EVER becoming wealthy. |
I was just reliving my past glories in this thread and came across this. I must have missed it in the initial hub bub.
The point that Seoulio makes here is (I have found) a common point of divergence between those who believe the state can affect positive change in society (statists) and those who believe that govt action only destroys wealth (libertarians).
Contrary to Seoulio's belief that wealth can only be attained by a few is patently false. All of us are much richer than even the richest monarchs of 200 years ago. I would rather work a minimum wage job today. Than be in the top 10% of income 200 years ago.
I read somewhere once that, if you took all the goods, services and capital equipment that currently exists in the world and divided it amongst all of the people on earth, there would be enough for everyone to have 3million dollars worth of stuff. So, even out of the stuff that only exists now (not including the ever increasing amount that will be produced in the future), there is enough wealth for everyone to be fabulously wealthy.
Basically, the way I see it is, you have a divergence of mind set in these two groups of people. One group fundamentally believes that there is enough wealth in the world for everyone to live a happy and fulfilling life. They have an abundance mind set. The other group believes that there is not enough stuff in the world and that we have to jealously guard the "little" that we do have. |
OH MY GOD!!!!
Just when I think your stupid coments could not get any worse.
You are clueless
There may be a BILLION dollars worth of stuff for each person on the planet, it DOES NOT mean that the ich people who have it currently will share it. How can you be so ignorant of that
NOT EVERYONE who wants to can be rich its as simple as that. Some people work damn hard doing three jobs to keep a family of 4 out of the poorhouse, because of capitalists lowering wages and beneifts and the government giving tax breaks to the major coprations and not them.
NOT EVERYONE who wants to be rich or works hard is going to ever become rich because of the ay the system keeps you down.
Its like a human dog pile of a million people, the ones aon the top are going to be ahead always because there is less crap piled on them, the people on the bottom have little to no chance of getting out unless they get lucky or the people on the top help them out.
Many of us are richer than the monarchs of 200 years ago? wel thats awesome?
1) How much of the precious materials we have today had been mined by then
2) how much oild and other stuff had we foun and processed at that point
3) how poor was the average person back then
4) what was the POPULATION of earth back then ( I can answer that one for you, in 1810 we had JUST reached a BILLION people 6 years before, thats ONE billion people there buddy, not almost 7)
5) what is the INFLATION over the last 200-300 years)
You are so ignorant of these little things when you make these non sequitor arguments that it is not even funny.
When the money back then was substantially less, worth less etc of course we may be "richer" that some Kings bac then is This doen NOTHING to change the fact that 80 percent of that wealth is currently in the hands of less than 10 percent of the planets people, and arguably HALF of the planet makes less than a survivable wage, if they make a wage at all.
YOu assume we will continue to make more in the future as well.
1) With what oil?
2) with what new technology that will replace oil?
3) Unless we start making and planning these new technologies now how wil you make create them since at the moment every single VIABLE option for over 7 billion people requires OIL to manufacture them
4)What wil be produced when World war 3 braks out over............ wait for it............ OIL.
Now you may cal all of these points "speculation" and maybe they may be, I don't have a crystal ball, but you may want to think if them ( and how great your "capitalism" is when you make a coment like we will have an EVER CONTINUING production well into the future.
Honestly I hope you are quite young, like 23 or 24, not only would this explain your general ignorance and lack of common sense thinking, but you just may be around for the next 50-60 years when things get REALLY bad and you can view the world your extreme and reckless capitalism as created.
See if the "rich" people you defend will be worth much when and if the wrold economy is basically gone and the world plunges into anarchy.
IT is QUITE possible this is exactky what will hapen, and to say it is impossible would again show your extreme ignorance |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
I read somewhere once that, if you took all the goods, services and capital equipment that currently exists in the world and divided it amongst all of the people on earth, there would be enough for everyone to have 3million dollars worth of stuff. So, even out of the stuff that only exists now (not including the ever increasing amount that will be produced in the future), there is enough wealth for everyone to be fabulously wealthy.
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I also read that the Holocaust was a hoax, that the world was created in seven days, and that William Shakespeare never wrote his plays.
Then I either cracked a book, dug into it, or knew from simple facts (if not common sense) that none of these was likely to be the case at all.
Perhaps you could cite a better source than "I read somewhere once......." |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
OH MY GOD!!!!
Just when I think your stupid coments could not get any worse.
You are clueless |
I will give you a cookie if you can come even close to proving true this spit flecked yelp of misplaced disdain
| Quote: |
| There may be a BILLION dollars worth of stuff for each person on the planet, it DOES NOT mean that the ich people who have it currently will share it. How can you be so ignorant of that |
I wouldn't expect them to. If you divided all the stuff in the world amongst its inhabitants, that stuff would quickly find its way back to the people who are best at employing it.
I was using that idea for demonstration purposes only. To show to you that there is enough for everyone in the world to live a comfortable life style.
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NOT EVERYONE who wants to can be rich its as simple as that. Some people work damn hard doing three jobs to keep a family of 4 out of the poorhouse, because of capitalists lowering wages and beneifts and the government giving tax breaks to the major coprations and not them.
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I agree. You probably will never become rich working three jobs. It's not impossible, but it is highly unlikely. You need to find a way to provide value. The information on how to do that is freely available in every book store and on the internet. It takes dedication, time, perseverance and a little money to obtain that information. Unfortunately, most people aren't willing to pay that price, and as a result stay poor.
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| NOT EVERYONE who wants to be rich or works hard is going to ever become rich because of the ay the system keeps you down. |
Maybe not Bill Gates rich, but it is perfectly possible to at least improve your life substantially. Most people have your mind set Seoulio, so they agitate for free stuff from the govt, instead of trying to be a productive member of society.
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| Its like a human dog pile of a million people, the ones aon the top are going to be ahead always because there is less crap piled on them, the people on the bottom have little to no chance of getting out unless they get lucky or the people on the top help them out. |
I feel really sorry for you Seoulio. You were born in one of the richest countries on earth. You live in another fabulously rich country, working, probably, the easiest job I have ever encountered. There are myriad opportunities all around you to further improve your life style.
Yet, you still come out with stuff like this.
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| Many of us are richer than the monarchs of 200 years ago? wel thats awesome? |
It is pretty amazing when you think about it. If you can't see the wonder in that, then I feel really sorry for you.
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| 1) How much of the precious materials we have today had been mined by then |
We aren't running out of resources. Oil, maybe, but production of every other good continues to expand. And we are getting better at using the ones we do extract from the ground.
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| 2) how much oild and other stuff had we foun and processed at that point |
No idea.
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3) how poor was the average person back then |
Abjectly dirt poor. Which is what makes our current standard of living so amazing and awe inspiring.
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| 4) what was the POPULATION of earth back then ( I can answer that one for you, in 1810 we had JUST reached a BILLION people 6 years before, thats ONE billion people there buddy, not almost 7) |
It's quite amazing that the world's population has exploded, yet we have been able to feed and clothe so many of those people. There are more poor people than back then (obviously) but the total level of poverty is much lower. As long as this trend continues, then what is the big deal?
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5) what is the INFLATION over the last 200-300 years) |
The USD has lost 97% of its value since just 1917. This is a direct result of Fed banking and printing money based on nothing.
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You are so ignorant of these little things when you make these non sequitor arguments that it is not even funny. |
Question number 5 belies a lot of ignorance in yourself.
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| When the money back then was substantially less, worth less etc of course we may be "richer" that some Kings bac then is This doen NOTHING to change the fact that 80 percent of that wealth is currently in the hands of less than 10 percent of the planets people, and arguably HALF of the planet makes less than a survivable wage, if they make a wage at all. |
Honestly, I could care less about inequality. As I mentioned earlier, the total percentage of people in poverty is continuing to decline. That is a massive achievement.
If those people with a lot of money did something illegal to gain the money they did, then they should be prosecuted and forced to pay retribution. If not, all you are doing is advocating theft. Which makes you a violent person.
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YOu assume we will continue to make more in the future as well.
1) With what oil?
2) with what new technology that will replace oil?
3) Unless we start making and planning these new technologies now how wil you make create them since at the moment every single VIABLE option for over 7 billion people requires OIL to manufacture them
4)What wil be produced when World war 3 braks out over............ wait for it............ OIL. |
You are correct. This is a hugely troubling issue. There are already alternatives. Do I need to list them for you? Really?
They are not viable right now, as oil is so plentiful and cheap. When this isn't the case anymore, something relatively more plentiful and cheap will emerge. Because there will be a (rather large) niche in the market where a lot of people will be able to make a lot of money. That's how the market works.
Govt intervention isn't able to effectively fill this role, as individual humans are pretty poor at predicting what people will want in the future. Large groups, however, are surprisingly adept at providing just the right product or service at just the right time.
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Honestly I hope you are quite young, like 23 or 24, not only would this explain your general ignorance and lack of common sense thinking, but you just may be around for the next 50-60 years when things get REALLY bad and you can view the world your extreme and reckless capitalism as created. |
haha. You must be of the baby boomer generation. What with your general sense of entitlement to other people's stuff. I hope you are around in the next 50-60 years (which you probably will because of the health market's ever increasing ability to produce technology that extends life and increase living standards) so that you can see the havoc that your ignorance and lack of common sense will play on the economy. Things will continue to get better, but will be hindered by all the entitlement programs that you voted for yourself.
Who will be paying for all that stuff? It will be people like us 23-24 year olds. You should be thankful to me.
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See if the "rich" people you defend will be worth much when and if the wrold economy is basically gone and the world plunges into anarchy.
IT is QUITE possible this is exactky what will hapen, and to say it is impossible would again show your extreme ignorance |
 This is just confusing. Seriously, click some of the links I gave you.
I wish you had provided one piece of evidence, or one salient point. You obviously are pretty entrenched in your world view (and it is quite a common world view) but there isn't that much to back it up (from you) except a lot of shouting. You like to call me ignorant, but you haven't given any reason for a person to believe that you are any more enlightened.
No cookie for you. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
I read somewhere once that, if you took all the goods, services and capital equipment that currently exists in the world and divided it amongst all of the people on earth, there would be enough for everyone to have 3million dollars worth of stuff. So, even out of the stuff that only exists now (not including the ever increasing amount that will be produced in the future), there is enough wealth for everyone to be fabulously wealthy.
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I also read that the Holocaust was a hoax, that the world was created in seven days, and that William Shakespeare never wrote his plays.
Then I either cracked a book, dug into it, or knew from simple facts (if not common sense) that none of these was likely to be the case at all.
Perhaps you could cite a better source than "I read somewhere once......." |
I've got no chance of finding the link again, but I will try to illustrate my point to you.
My point is, "It is self evident that there is more than enough stuff in the world for everyone to live a happy and fulfilling life, if they choose to."
First. World per capita GDP is about $10,000USD. That's 60,000,000 million total GDP divided by 6 billion people. (I think that's right, I suck at maths). That may not sound like much, but remember that the "purchasing power parity" isn't the same all over the world. It's much cheaper to live in Vietnam or Venezuela, than in Korea or the US.
Obviously, I'm not advocating spreading GDP out equally, the 20th century showed us that it isn't possible. But and average standard of living like this is massive and the average standard of living continues to grow, across the world. The barriers to increasing living standards are ALWAYS erected by the govt. Always. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly Senior I feeel sorry for you.
I am sure you are an educated guy, you would have to be to be here in KOrea, but you seem pretty myopic and blind about pretty much everything I have ever seen you type.
As for finding stupid comments you have made, well i mean pretty much reference any point on this discussion alone. You have never provided even one valid source to all the claims youhave made, you make up things to suit your argument, you think proving your argument is "here read this it will tell you" then when I say I won't you go "see I must be right then ( basically)"
I mean do you have any ability to have independant thought. Can you realy stand there and tell me that capitalism as a sytem ( no matter how its being run) is a good one for all people? You think a selfish, tyrannical, thoughtless, greed driven ideology is good for society?
It is virtually identical to communism whne it comes down to results, most of the money is in the hands of the few, control by the government/corporations, people are virtually powerles to do anything, major fluctuations in economy. Mass unemployment
I mean other than the breadlines.
Anyway please don't respond, you will be wasting your time, I am not going to read it. I mean Ive been clueless in my day, but I have got nothing on you. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
As for finding stupid comments you have made, well i mean pretty much reference any point on this discussion alone. You have never provided even one valid source to all the claims youhave made, you make up things to suit your argument, you think proving your argument is "here read this it will tell you" then when I say I won't you go "see I must be right then ( basically)" |
I linked to a good show on Milton Friedman that aired this week. I linked a torrent of Friedman's classic documentary Free To Choose. Earlier I linked to Mises' Liberalism and Hazlitt's Economics In One Lesson. You scoffed. What references have you ever cited?
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| I mean do you have any ability to have independant thought. Can you realy stand there and tell me that capitalism as a sytem ( no matter how its being run) is a good one for all people? You think a selfish, tyrannical, thoughtless, greed driven ideology is good for society? |
The fact remains that the economically freest countries are the richest. Those with the most govt action and spending fail.
The problem is, is that you don't understand what people mean when they say capitalism. You have a Michael Moore conception of what the word means. Which is basically anything bad that happens in the world. Despite the fact that govt action can be linked to almost every problem we have.
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It is virtually identical to communism whne it comes down to results, most of the money is in the hands of the few, control by the government/corporations, people are virtually powerles to do anything, major fluctuations in economy. Mass unemployment
I mean other than the breadlines. |
Facile, infantile understanding of capitalism. I gave you all the tools begin making a decision for yourself but you decided to respond childishly instead.
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Anyway please don't respond, you will be wasting your time, I am not going to read it. I mean Ive been clueless in my day, but I have got nothing on you. |
I guess you win then.
Btw, what happened to your best mate Smee? I thought he was the smartest person you had read on here in a long time? I guess that shows a lot for your judgment. You're in good company having about the same level of understanding in economics. At least he knew when to quit. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I dont care if I understand economics, my only point was, and has always been that Capitalism is a ridiculous system and is terrible for the planet (government intervention or otherwise)
You are a fool if you think otherwise.
All of the very real problems we will face you just shrug your shoulders and basically have faith that they will figure it out and that we will be fine. I am not that naive, or undereducated.
Thats all I wanted to say, I am offically done with you now.
bye bye |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
| I dont care if I understand economics, my only point was, and has always been that Capitalism is a ridiculous system and is terrible for the planet (government intervention or otherwise) |
You, or anyone else, has shown any evidence that this is the case, in the last 10 pages of this thread. Economically freer countries have less pollution.
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You are a fool if you think otherwise.
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You win I guess. Do you seriously think that name calling advancing your cause at all?
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| All of the very real problems we will face you just shrug your shoulders and basically have faith that they will figure it out and that we will be fine. I am not that naive, or undereducated. |
I don't shrug my shoulders. I point out where the problems come from. 99% of those problems stem from govt action.
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Thats all I wanted to say, I am offically done with you now.
bye bye |
Suit yourself. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:15 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
You, or anyone else, has shown any evidence that this is the case, in the last 10 pages of this thread. Economically freer countries have less pollution. |
But isn't that because they've given over most of their manufacturing sector to places like Vietnam and China? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
You, or anyone else, has shown any evidence that this is the case, in the last 10 pages of this thread. Economically freer countries have less pollution. |
But isn't that because they've given over most of their manufacturing sector to places like Vietnam and China? |
The US is still the biggest manufacturer in the world.
Those countries are not as economically free (though they are getting freer) which pretty much proves my point.
Granted, a lot of the lower tech stuff has been "off-shored" to the places you mention. However, that is a good thing for those countries in the long term. They will gradually move into more advanced manufacturing sectors. This happened in Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, etc and it is happening as we speak in China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Geese_Paradigm |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| I dont care if I understand economics, my only point was, and has always been that Capitalism is a ridiculous system and is terrible for the planet (government intervention or otherwise) |
You, or anyone else, has shown any evidence that this is the case, in the last 10 pages of this thread. Economically freer countries have less pollution.
LOL HAVE YOU PROVEN THAT, AMERICA IS ONE OF THE MOST POLLUTED COUNTRIES AROUND. PROVE ME WRONG
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You are a fool if you think otherwise.
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You win I guess. Do you seriously think that name calling advancing your cause at all?
NO MORE SO THAN YOU COSNTANTLY AFFIRMING FALSE FACTS AS BEING ACCURATE. I MEAN HOW DO I RESPOND TO YOU WHEN YOU MAKE UP FACTS AND DON'T ACCEPT COMMON SENSE OR REASON? IN MY WORLD I DON'T CALL THAT NAME CALLING, I CAL IT "CALLING THEM AS i SEE EM"
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| All of the very real problems we will face you just shrug your shoulders and basically have faith that they will figure it out and that we will be fine. I am not that naive, or undereducated. |
I don't shrug my shoulders. I point out where the problems come from. 99% of those problems stem from govt action.
AND YOU ARE HOPLESSLY CLUELESS IF YOU THINK THATS TRUE, BUT YOU HAVE SHOWN THAT TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
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Thats all I wanted to say, I am offically done with you now.
bye bye |
Suit yourself. |
I have no idea why I keep responding, man do the corporations have you snowed. Capitalism good, Government bad. Its not us we swear, if it wasnt for the government the planet would be clean and we wouldnt be raping it of its national resources for profit. I mean honestly, how do you swallow such crap and totally ignore common sense and simple observations to the contrary? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 5:53 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Seoulio"]
| Senior wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
| I dont care if I understand economics, my only point was, and has always been that Capitalism is a ridiculous system and is terrible for the planet (government intervention or otherwise) |
You, or anyone else, has shown any evidence that this is the case, in the last 10 pages of this thread. Economically freer countries have less pollution.
LOL HAVE YOU PROVEN THAT, AMERICA IS ONE OF THE MOST POLLUTED COUNTRIES AROUND. PROVE ME WRONG |
I did a 2 second google search.
http://epi.yale.edu/Countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Performance_Index
It yielded something called the Environmental Performance Index. Which was developed by Yale.
As you can see, it ranks the United States at the bottome of the TOP third of environmental performance. So, no. The US is no where near one of the most polluted countries around.
The study also backs up my assertion that freer countries are cleaner countries. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
I have no idea why I keep responding, man do the corporations have you snowed. Capitalism good, Government bad. Its not us we swear, if it wasnt for the government the planet would be clean and we wouldnt be raping it of its national resources for profit. I mean honestly, how do you swallow such crap and totally ignore common sense and simple observations to the contrary? |
I have no idea why you continue to respond, either. Considering that you make a fool of yourself almost every time you do.
You have thus far failed to provide even one example of either common sense or a simple observation. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote=senior]
The fact remains that the economically freest countries are the richest. Those with the most govt action and spending fail. [/quote]
"Norwegians enjoy the second highest GDP per-capita (after Luxembourg) and third highest GDP (PPP) per-capita in the world. Norway maintained first place in the world in the UNDP Human Development Index (HDI) for six consecutive years (2001�2006),[15] and then reclaimed this position in 2009.[16]
The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil license ownership). Norway is a major shipping nation and has the world's 6th largest merchant fleet, with 1,412 Norwegian-owned merchant vessels."
I want my cookie, please. |
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