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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| senior wrote: |
The fact remains that the economically freest countries are the richest. Those with the most govt action and spending fail. |
"Norwegians enjoy the second highest GDP per-capita (after Luxembourg) and third highest GDP (PPP) per-capita in the world. Norway maintained first place in the world in the UNDP Human Development Index (HDI) for six consecutive years (2001�2006),[15] and then reclaimed this position in 2009.[16]
The Norwegian economy is an example of a mixed economy, a prosperous capitalist welfare state featuring a combination of free market activity and large state ownership in certain key sectors. The state has large ownership positions in key industrial sectors, such as the strategic petroleum sector (Statoil), hydroelectric energy production (Statkraft), aluminium production (Norsk Hydro), the largest Norwegian bank (DnB NOR), and telecommunication provider (Telenor). Through these big companies, the government controls approximately 30% of the stock values at the Oslo Stock Exchange. When non-listed companies are included, the state has even higher share in ownership (mainly from direct oil license ownership). Norway is a major shipping nation and has the world's 6th largest merchant fleet, with 1,412 Norwegian-owned merchant vessels."
I want my cookie, please. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Socialists just love references to Scandinavia. There's just one teeny, weeny problem: if Scandinavia is socialist, then the sky is the sea.
Economic freedom in Norway: http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/Norway
Economic freedom in the US: http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/UnitedStates
Compare them, Leon. You will find that, in several ways, Norway is economically-freer than the quintessentially-capitalist US.
If there's one thing the religious hate, it's facts. The superior economic freedoms in Scandinavia are, to the religion of socialism, what Darwinism is to Genenis. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
Socialists just love references to Scandinavia. There's just one teeny, weeny problem: if Scandinavia is socialist, then the sky is the sea.
Economic freedom in Norway: http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/Norway
Economic freedom in the US: http://www.heritage.org/Index/Country/UnitedStates
Compare them, Leon. You will find that, in several ways, Norway is economically-freer than the quintessentially-capitalist US.
If there's one thing the religious hate, it's facts. The superior economic freedoms in Scandinavia are, to the religion of socialism, what Darwinism is to Genenis. |
I must be missing something. Firstly the information is from the Heritage foundation, which I'm tempted to dismiss out of hand, and secondly the US is ranked much higher. I am not a socialist, but the idea that every time a government is involved in the economy it's bad is silly. Norway has one of the biggest social benefits programs for it's citizens. It is routinely placed at the top of quality of life index's. If you are saying that Norway isn't a socialist country than I agree with you. Why is it always about buzzwords like socialism? |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
I must be missing something. |
Yes - thought
| Leon wrote: |
| Firstly the information is from the Heritage foundation, which I'm tempted to dismiss out of hand |
ad hominem
| Leon wrote: |
| and secondly the US is ranked much higher. |
Yes, it is - that is, if you solely consider gross statistics and don't bother to look any deeper
| Leon wrote: |
| I am not a socialist |
Yes, you are.
You loath capitalism, you loath the Israelis - what more qualifications does a socialist require?
| Leon wrote: |
| but the idea that every time a government is involved in the economy it's bad is silly. |
Whose position is this?
| Leon wrote: |
| Norway has one of the biggest social benefits programs for it's citizens. |
It is also, in many ways, economically-freer than the US
Got a better empirical study? Bring it on
| Leon wrote: |
| It is routinely placed at the top of quality of life index's |
If there's one thing I hate, Leon, it's an unnecessary apostrophe. By any remote chance, did you receive 'free' education? |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Firstly the information is from the Heritage foundation, which I'm tempted to dismiss out of hand |
ad hominem |
This isn't ad hominem. This is dismissing a source because it is a conservative think tank. The motivations behind the organization conducting the study are important to consider when reading it. This is like citing Robert Gibbs for an accurate portrayal of Obama's approval rating.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| It is routinely placed at the top of quality of life index's |
If there's one thing I hate, Leon, it's an unnecessary apostrophe. By any remote chance, did you receive 'free' education? |
Now this is an ad hominem attack. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I am not a socialist |
Yes, you are.
You loath capitalism, you loath the Israelis - what more qualifications does a socialist require? |
Where did I say I loath capitalism? I don't. Capitalism is good system. What does Israel have to do with anything? Your argument makes no sense. I'm flexible in my views, you don't appear to be. Try making an argument with out say socialist or socialism.
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| but the idea that every time a government is involved in the economy it's bad is silly. |
Whose position is this? |
Have you read the rest of the thread? Are you serious? Did you read what my post was in response too?
| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Norway has one of the biggest social benefits programs for it's citizens. |
It is also, in many ways, economically-freer than the US
Got a better empirical study? Bring it on |
So you agree that two very successful countries are not completely economically free. What are arguing with me about. I'm not a socialist, Capitalism is good, my main point was that government intervention isn't necessarily some dark evil thing like some other posters have emphatically stated.
| Leon wrote: |
| It is routinely placed at the top of quality of life index's |
If there's one thing I hate, Leon, it's an unnecessary apostrophe. By any remote chance, did you receive 'free' education?[/quote]
Oops. You caught me, you found the one valid mistake I made. Interesting that you ignored the statement that might contradict something you believe in, but honed in for an easy target. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| What does Israel have to do with anything? |
In general, there's a distinct correlation between what, in my view, is an excessive preoccupation with Israel and a general skeptcism towards the economic arguments of libertarian political philosophy
| Leon wrote: |
| Did you read what my post was in response too? |
It was in response to this, from Senior: "The fact remains that the economically freest countries are the richest. Those with the most govt action and spending fail"
He was right. Norway, your very own example, proves the point you opposed. Presumably, you totally misunderstood the real economic situation in Norway. Where does the wealth used to finance Norway's welfare state come from, Leon? Is it magicked out of thin air by blonde little Norwegian Obamas? No, it isn't. It's produced by, by and large, economically free people |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| seonsengnimble wrote: |
This isn't ad hominem. |
Haven't we been here before, Seonengnimble? Poor memory? Still don't understand ad hominem?
| Seonsengnimble wrote: |
| This is dismissing a source because it is a conservative think tank |
A: Conservative think tank claims X
B: X is dismissed because it is claimed by a conservative think thank
This is ad hominem
| Seonsengnimble wrote: |
| The motivations behind the organization conducting the study are important to consider when reading it. |
Why?
I despise many sources, but I don't just simply dismiss them as inherently dubious without at least making an effort to engage with any evidence given
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