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Israelis kill 10 aboard relief ship to Gaza
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:08 am Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Every day I read more and more articles within Israel condemning the raid and asking hard questions. This is heartening but I still remain skeptical given the leadership / government and their links to the military and also how indoctrinated the population of Israel is through military service. This is the soil of the actions we see. But here is an example article:

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417

Gideon Levy, one of my favourite journalists in the world. I've read him regularly since 2001. Here's his latest - a response to Bernard-Henri Levy's latest whinge about 'demonisation' of Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/in-response-to-bernard-henri-levy-1.295283

ddeubel wrote:

I've also heard no mention here about the 6 Flotilla members missing. They just disappeared and are not accounted for. There are many questions about if they are still imprisoned, killed after the operation, were IDF moles etc.... still, it is confirmed that they aren't accounted for and it makes sense that Israel wouldn't want any independent investigation....

Yes, I've been wondering about that. Quite a mystery. There's been all sorts of speculation. Here's just a few that I've come across: maybe their autopsies would reveal inconvenient facts, or maybe they fell overboard or, maybe they were 6 undercover Israeli operatives masquarading as activists.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:07 am Post subject:

Fox wrote:

Please stop responding using italics or bolding, and use proper quote formatting instead. It might be easier for you, but it means anyone responding to you has to do more format work to maintain legibility, and constantly runs the risk of quote misattributation.

Sorry about that, just looked over my post and saw how it could be confusing.

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

This isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be. Heres one reason to not grant citizenship

"The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to Palestinian Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland"

This is pure propaganda, and is in fact a perfect example of the Arabic nations in question using Palestinians as political tools. If they really cared about the Palestinians in question, they would grant them citizenship and allow them to incorporate if they as individuals desired it. It really is as cut-and-dry as I construed it as.

Almost nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to make it. Ultimately this has a lot to do with the economics of the countries as well. These countries aren't rich and if you make all the refugees citizens you have to provide services with them. Plus it's the same issues as immigrants face every where with the local population worried about competition for jobs. Israel is a unique situation as it actively encourages immigration and it's citizenry come from all over the world.

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

The right of return is an important point in the peace negotiations and should the two state solution ever work out then the Palestinian's would come back to their homeland .

Peace negotiations are just that: negotiations. Any negotiation could include the right for Palestinians -- even ones granted citizenship in other nations -- to return. Any negotiation that failed to include their return would make any so called "right to return" meaningless. I have to say, if you really believe this attempt at justifiying the abuse of Palestinian refugees by Arabic nations by preventing them from integrating and living their lives, I question your objectivity.

This is a major sticking point in the peace negotiations. Any negotiation that failed to include it would likely fail outright. It's hard for a poor country to turn that many refugees into citizens, at least no without billions of western aid. Also the Palestinians shoot themselves in the foot in this regard due to the actions of the PLO which angered many of their host nations, especially Jordan.

Leon wrote:

Also lets not forget the sheer number and economic conditions of the Palestinian refugees as compared to the Jews that came to Israel.

Fox wrote:

Many, many Jews came to Israel, and they largely had to leave their wealth behind. On the other hand, the nations which the Palestinians fled to still had possession of the holdings those Jewish refugees left behind. Israel, despite being a newly formed nation, was able to incorporate those impoverished Jewish refugees because it tried to. Other nations failed to incorporate Palestinian refugees because they refused to. That's what it ultimately comes down to.

Again you try to simplify complex things. I don't try and justify everything the Arab states do, why must you do the same for Israel? Clearly it would have been better for many of the Palestinians, but many of them didn't want this. Also the economic situation was different, as well as the political one. Israel was founded as a homeland for all the Jews so of course they acted the way they did. Almost no country ever turns refugees into citizens no matter the circumstances.

Fox wrote:

Leon wrote:

2) Israel being attacked caused a massive amount of refugees to move to neighboring countries. That's not Israel's actions, it's the actions of Arabic nations.

Perhaps they were tired of imperialist occupation, seems a reasonable enough reaction to me.

It's not their place to "be tired of" things happening outside of their own countries. You're supporting unprovoked military aggression at this point in this conversation. This is what I find so exasparating about anti-Israelis; every little thing Israel does becomes totally damning, but simultaneously, the horrors committed by the Muslim world "seem reasonable enough."

You know what, forget it. If unprovoked military aggression from nations with no stake in the land in question seems reasonable enough to you, then you seem totally unreasonable to me. Just another anti-Israeli who is beyond reason. I've been reading your post and responding as I've gone along, but if this is really your stance, then reading or responding to the rest is clearly just a waste of time.

Israel engages in unprovoked wars and acts of aggression constantly due to what it thinks are threats to it's security. Maybe that was a justification for the Arab states, surely they would have been right. The Arabs were against the Jewish state of Israel from the start, probably due to the fact it was an artifical population imposed by the British. Leading up to the 1948 war there was indiscriminate killing of Arabs by the Jews, and the same goes for Arabs against Jews.

During this time period after world war 2 the Arab states themselves were just becoming free countries out from under colonial rule. The core of the conflict was the UN partition plan which gave the Jews 56% of Palestine when they only had 32% of the population and gave them the best land. After the partition around 100 people were dying a week from violence. Israel formed militias that slaughtered entire towns of Palestinians. Look up the town of Deir Yassin.

Was either side completely innocent, clearly not. Was the attack entirely unprovoked by either side, no. You either do not know your history, or have a double standard.

I find it interesting that you stopped where you did. I would like to here your responses to the rest of my post and see how you reconcile your statements about the Muslim countries. I fully believe that neither side is innocent, but you only seem to find fault with one.

ddeubel

Joined: 20 Jul 2005

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject:

Big Bird wrote,

Quote:

Gideon Levy, one of my favourite journalists in the world. I've read him regularly since 2001. Here's his latest - a response to Bernard-Henri Levy's latest whinge about 'demonisation' of Israel.

Yes, he deserves a slap - typical French philosopher, head in the clouds. I've lost all respect for a once courageous thinker.

There is a lot of activism in Israel but there is SO MUCH censorship (and much of it the most serious kind - of self) that when people demonstrate, when there is "news" about another side of Israel's conscience - IT NEVER APPEARS IN PRESS OR ON TV. This is the big truth and why I don't refrain from calling Israel a dictatorship and not anything like a democracy. In Israel, the press puts up totally fake videos of IDF pulling missles out of the cargo of the flotilla (everyone knows it was fake but even large news outlets ran the video) but not a snip of video that recounts anything but the IDF view.

No one on this thread has addressed my point that the blockade isn't about what goes in but what doesn't go out (zero except for human talent). That is the reason the blockade is evil - it destroys the talents and hopes of people to be the makers of their own bread and butter.......

Gwynne Dyer has an interesting column "How to end the blockade" . He also calls it right in plainly and simply stating what happened.

Quote:

Anybody with the slightest experience of the real world knows what must have happened on the deck of Mavi Marmara, the aid ship in question. A bunch of overconfident, undertrained Israeli commandos ran into unexpected resistance from activists, a few of whom had improvised but serious weapons like iron bars. Maybe one or two had knives. And one or two of the commandos panicked and opened fire.

Then the rest of the commandos joined in, presumably thinking that the shooters were responding to a real threat. They all blasted away for 20 or 30 seconds, and when their magazines were empty there were 40 bodies on the deck, some writhing in pain and others lying very still. After that, there was nothing the commandos could do but come up with a story that excused their actions.

http://www.straight.com/article-327627/vancouver/gwynne-dyer-how-break-gaza-blockade

DD
http://eflclassroom.com

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

Here is an interesting article I read just today. Don't worry, it's not from a loony marxist tree-hugging blogger - but from a Rupert Murdoch publication. Remember Murdoch is a good friend of Israel, and generally tries to give them favourable press. Just making that point so poor little TUM doesn't cry about the source. Wink

[url].

And you still refuse to answer my question. So I'll take that as agreement with me that you are indeed wrong about the West Bank.

Thanks for playing...come again.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:03 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

[url].

And you still refuse to answer my question. So I'll take that as agreement with me that you are indeed wrong about the West Bank.

Thanks for playing...come again.

What question? What are you harping on about?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:10 pm Post subject:

ddeubel wrote:

Big Bird wrote,

Quote:

Gideon Levy, one of my favourite journalists in the world. I've read him regularly since 2001. Here's his latest - a response to Bernard-Henri Levy's latest whinge about 'demonisation' of Israel.

Quote:

http://www.straight.com/article-327627/vancouver/gwynne-dyer-how-break-gaza-blockade

DD
http://eflclassroom.com

Gwynne Dyer's scenario is pretty much what I pictured myself. Just one big **** up. One IDF fellow alone was responsible for 6 deaths apparantly. Is no-one asking serious questions about that? No. In fact, he's getting a medal! The ages of the dead men is also very interesting. I was kind of expecting young hotheads - but only one of the dead is younger than 30, and most of them are middle aged men. Doesn't that alone raise serious questions?

Also from Gwynne Dyer:

Quote:

Do the Israeli spokespersons even understand that any professional army in the West that carried out such a botched and bloody operation would immediately suspend the commanders responsible and launch a major investigation? No, probably not. They have lost all perspective on themselves.

And that's their biggest problem. As a nation, they've completely lost the plot. They've become unable to take a long hard look in the mirror. This wasn't always the case - recall the outcry after Sabra & Chatilla where one tenth of the public demonstrated in Tel Aviv. But that was 30 years ago, and everything has changed. There's a few voices in the wilderness, such as Gideon Levy, but no-one much is listening. As a nation they're so convinced they are victims and the world is just out to get them. The BBC and CNN are anti-semitic organisations who just make stuff up [in fact these organisations treat Israel far too timidly]. And their delusions are buttressed by such as the once great Bernard-Henri Levy. He does a great disservice to Israel, if only he could see it.

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:32 pm Post subject:

Uri Avnery asks 80 pertinent questions, of which I'll post 18.

From: Who is Afraid of a real Inquiry?

Quote:

If a real Commission of Inquiry had been set up (instead of the pathetic excuse for a commission), here are some of the questions it should have addressed:

Quote:

Questions concerning the action itself: Why was the flotilla cut off from any contact with the world throughout the operation, if there was nothing to hide?

Did anyone protest that the soldiers were actually being sent into a trap?

Was it taken into consideration that the plan adopted would place the soldiers for several critical minutes in a dangerously inferior position?

When exactly did the soldiers start to shoot live ammunition?

Which of the soldiers was the first to fire?

Was the shooting � all or part of it � justified?

Is it true that the soldiers started firing even before descending onto the deck, as asserted by the passengers?

Is it true that the fire continued even after the captain of the ship and the activists announced several times over loudspeakers that the ship had surrendered, and after they had actually hoisted white flags?

Is it true that five of the nine people killed were shot in the back, indicating that they were trying to get away from the soldiers and thus could not be endangering their lives?

Why was the killed man Ibrahim Bilgen, 61 years old and father of six and a candidate for mayor in his home town, described as a terrorist?

Why was the killed man Cetin Topcoglu, 54 years old, trainer of the Turkish national taekwondo (Korean martial arts) team, whose wife was also on the ship, described as a terrorist?

Why was the killed man Cevdet Kiliclar, a 38 year old journalist, described as a terrorist?

Why was the killed man Ali Haydar Bengi, father of four, graduate of the al-Azhar school for literature in Cairo, described as a terrorist?

Why were the killed men Necdet Yaldirim, 32 years old, father of a daughter; Fahri Yaldiz, 43 years old, father of four; Cengiz Songur, 47 years old, father of seven; and Cengiz Akyuz, 41 years old, father of three, described as terrorists?

Is it a lie that the activists took a pistol from a soldier and shot him with it, as described by the IDF, or is it true that the activists did in fact throw the pistol into the sea without using it?

Is it true, as stated by Jamal Elshayyal, a British subject, that the soldiers prevented treatment for the Turkish wounded for three hours, during which time several of them died?

Is it true, as stated by this journalist, that he was handcuffed behind his back and forced to kneel for three hours in the blazing sun, that he was not allowed to go and urinate and told to �piss in his pants�, that he remained handcuffed for 24 hours without water, that his British passport was taken from him and not returned; that his laptop computer, three cellular telephones and 1500 dollars in cash were taken from him and not returned?

Did the IDF cut off the passengers from the world for 48 hours and confiscate all the cameras, films and cell phones of the journalists on board in order to suppress any information that did not conform to the IDF story?

Is it a standing procedure to keep the Prime Minister (or his acting deputy, Moshe Yaalon in this case) in the picture during an operation, was this procedure implemented, and was it implemented in previous cases, such as the Entebbe operation or the boarding of the ship �Karin A�?

Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:39 pm Post subject:

Oops. 81 questions.

Quote:

And, finally, the question of questions:

What is our political and military leadership trying to hide?

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:28 pm Post subject:

Ken O'Keefe, ex-US Marine and a survivor of the Mami Marmara:

Quote:

When I was asked, in the event of an Israeli attack on the Mavi Mamara, would I use the camera, or would I defend the ship? I enthusiastically committed to defence of the ship. Although I am also a huge supporter of non-violence, in fact I believe non-violence must always be the first option. Nonetheless I joined the defence of the Mavi Mamara understanding that violence could be used against us and that we may very well be compelled to use violence in self-defence.

I said this straight to Israeli agents, probably of Mossad or Shin Bet, and I say it again now, on the morning of the attack I was directly involved in the disarming of two Israeli Commandos. This was a forcible, non-negotiable, separation of weapons from commandos who had already murdered two brothers that I had seen that day. One brother with a bullet entering dead center in his forehead, in what appeared to be an execution. I knew the commandos were murdering when I removed a 9mm pistol from one of them. I had that gun in my hands and as an ex-US Marine with training in the use of guns it was completely within my power to use that gun on the commando who may have been the murderer of one of my brothers. But that is not what I, nor any other defender of the ship did. I took that weapon away, removed the bullets, proper lead bullets, separated them from the weapon and hid the gun. I did this in the hopes that we would repel the attack and submit this weapon as evidence in a criminal trial against Israeli authorities for mass murder.

I also helped to physically separate one commando from his assault rifle, which another brother apparently threw into the sea. I and hundreds of others know the truth that makes a mockery of the brave and moral Israeli military. We had in our full possession, three completely disarmed and helpless commandos. These boys were at our mercy, they were out of reach of their fellow murderers, inside the ship and surrounded by 100 or more men. I looked into the eyes of all three of these boys and I can tell you they had the fear of God in them. They looked at us as if we were them, and I have no doubt they did not believe there was any way they would survive that day. They looked like frightened children in the face of an abusive father.

But they did not face an enemy as ruthless as they. Instead the woman provided basic first aid, and ultimately they were released, battered and bruised for sure, but alive. Able to live another day. Able to feel the sun over head and the embrace of loved ones. Unlike those they murdered. Despite mourning the loss of our brothers, feeling rage towards these boys, we let them go. The Israeli prostitutes of propaganda can spew all of their disgusting bile all they wish, the commandos are the murderers, we are the defenders, and yet we fought. We fought not just for our lives, not just for our cargo, not just for the people of Palestine, we fought in the name of justice and humanity. We were right to do so, in every way.

While in Israeli custody I, along with everyone else was subjected to endless abuse and flagrant acts of disrespect. Women and elderly were physically and mentally assaulted. Access to food and water and toilets was denied. Dogs were used against us, we ourselves were treated like dogs. We were exposed to direct sun in stress positions while hand cuffed to the point of losing circulation of blood in our hands. We were lied to incessantly, in fact I am awed at the routineness and comfort in their ability to lie, it is remarkable really. We were abused in just about every way imaginable and I myself was beaten and choked to the point of blacking out� and I was beaten again while in my cell.

In all this what I saw more than anything else were cowards� and yet I also see my brothers. Because no matter how vile and wrong the Israeli agents and government are, they are still my brothers and sisters and for now I only have pity for them. Because they are relinquishing the most precious thing a human being has, their humanity.

Ken O�Keefe: �We, the defenders of the Mavi Marmara, are the modern example of Gandhi�s essence�

hack

Joined: 24 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject:

"Ken O'Keefe, ex-US Marine and a survivor of the Mami Marmara:" You might want to do a little research into Ken O'Keefe before you start parading him as a poster boy for the US Marines. He's a Hamas supporter for chrissakes. http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/06/terror-linked-leftist-nutcase-ken-okeefe-defends-attacking-israeli-soldiers-on-the-mavi-marmara-video/

Interested

Joined: 10 Feb 2003

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:24 am Post subject:

hack wrote:

"Ken O'Keefe, ex-US Marine and a survivor of the Mami Marmara:"

You might want to do a little research into Ken O'Keefe before you start parading him as a poster boy for the US Marines. He's a Hamas supporter for chrissakes.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/06/terror-linked-leftist-nutcase-ken-okeefe-defends-attacking-israeli-soldiers-on-the-mavi-marmara-video/

From your link:

Quote:

American activist Ken O�Keefe is on record admitting that he had met Ismail Haniya, the Hamas leader, and said that he supported the organisation�s �right to violent resistance�.

So? It's a rational position which he argues well (elsewhere). It's pretty normal for an occupied people to violently resist occupation. Has happened all through history. As he points out (elsewhere) even Gandi agreed that Indians should choose violent resistance against the British if non-violent tactics failed to work. The Gazans were relatively passive for many years after 1967. It didn't get them far. International law accepts that occupied people may use violent resistance against their occupiers. It's their choice really. You're not really in a position to judge, unless you've lived under the boot of occupation yourself. Do recall too that Hamas has notably tried to use non-violent means in recent years, but it seems that, in Israel, they "have no partner for peace."

Would we dismiss him so quickly if he met with a PKK guerilla and said the Kurds had the right to resist by violent means? I kind of doubt it. Probably the only reason we have rarely heard Turkey condemned for its violent oppression of the Kurds is that, like Israel, Turkey is a US ally.

I'm pretty sure he also maintains that violence should be a last resort, after non-violent means have been exhausted. That's a position many reasonable people take. If you apply it even-handedly, then you have to accept that it also applies to Hamas.

The Happy Warrior

Joined: 10 Feb 2010

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 1:23 am Post subject:

Interested is right. Before the Boston Massacre, Bostonians regularly chucked excrement at the redcoats. On the day of the Massacre, Bostonians were throwing snowballs and other small objects at the soldiers. Very few Americans would argue that the five Bostonians who died 'had it coming to them.' The principle is proportional response. Israel violated that principle when it fired on the protesters.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 9:45 pm Post subject:

Big_Bird wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Big_Bird wrote:

[url].

And you still refuse to answer my question. So I'll take that as agreement with me that you are indeed wrong about the West Bank.

Thanks for playing...come again.

What question? What are you harping on about?

You were trying to tell us that the situation in the West Bank was hardly better than that in Gaza and I called you out on that.

Here's the question:
Are you claiming that you know more about the situation and have better information than the CIA world fact book, the NYT, the World Bank Group, Le Monde, and the Boston Globe, just to name a few?

These sources among others were used for the information in the below link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Palestinian_territories

Here's a quote from the last paragraph: (bolding mine)

"In 2009, an economic boom began with growth reaching 8%, higher than in Israel or the West. Tourism to Bethlehem, which had doubled to 1 million in 2008, rose to nearly 1.5 million, in 2009. New car imports increased by 44 percent. New shopping malls opened in Jenin and Nablus."

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2010 10:05 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

[q The core of the conflict was the UN partition plan which gave the Jews 56% of Palestine when they only had 32% of the population and gave them the best land. .

Mind giving us the cites for said claims?

Summer Wine

Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River

Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:34 pm Post subject:

Quote:

TEL AVIV � Israel captured and subsequently released a senior Syrian intelligence officer on board a Turkish ship heading the flotilla to the Gaza Strip last month.

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2010/me_israel0523_06_14.asp

Thats an interesting issue if true. I wonder how many intelligence people were on the boat.

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