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balzor
Joined: 14 Feb 2009
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 Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| balzor wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| People pay a lot of money (through taxes) to go to school. This is a failure by the school and school district on so many levels. |
Please, most of these kids probably have to do it at home also. God forbid they should have to get their hands really dirty one in their life. They will wash just fine. If you penalize the school, this sends a clear message to the students that the school can't actually punish them as long as they biaotch about it. |
The problem stems from the structure of the school system.
Why did the kids misbehave? I'm going to guess the school is a shithole and the kids don't want to be there in the first place. They know that their schooling is failing them. They're not stupid.
If the kids had a choice about what they could do with their time they would be less likely to misbehave. It's the institutionalization of children that is the problem. Not the children. |
It's a Tech school, not a regular school. Most kids there have probably expressed a desire to learn Tech stuff and may have even opted to go to that school. I can't speak intelligently on this tho, because I went to a private school |
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southernman
Joined: 15 Jan 2010
Location: On the mainland again
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| Posted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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That sucks we just got the cane back in the day, up to six at a time. I had the marks on my butt and thighs for well over a month one time.
The worse I had to do was shovel coal in the boiler room for about an hour after school. In a school uniform as well. It was dusty dusty dirty work.
I forget what we had done but it was probably nothing that outragious, 4 of us were covered from head to foot in soot and then had to go home and cop it from our parents for ruining our uniforms.
Actually thinking about it cleaning toilets would have been better  |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:03 am Post subject: |
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so when a kid f's up he cleans toilets? When a kid doesnt do his homework he cleans toilets?
What is a toilet worth offense?
You are there to TEACH students, there are plenty of valid punishments that do not involve demeaning the kid and making him clean toilets. You thikn the kid "learns his lesson from that" you think this teaches them anything.
So its not about "solving the issue" or figuring out whats causing the behaviour, its not about teaching about teaching the "whole child" its about hey buddy this ain't gonna fly heres a scrub brush get down on your knees and make that toilet bowl sparkle.
This is the same kid that is later going to take some kids school bag and take a dump in it. I've been there.
Its an EDUCATIONAL institution and you are there to educate not teach him janitorial skills as punishment It sends the wrong message and in most cases actually strengthens the kids desire to rebel further ( don't know of the study that said this, surprise surpirse right, but I took this very topic in University)
Saying that "we send the message that we can't punish the students" is a cop out, it sends the message you have no desire to actually help them or address the WHY of the behavior.
My worst student ever never cleaned a toilet, we did this thing called "talking" found out that his dyslexia and the fact that he felt his brother favored his younger brother, caused him to act out. We had a heart to heart, made some agreements that we both had to honor, give and take sort of thing, kid went from F grades to c grades inside of a month, and up to solid bs by the end of term.
I mean I know many don't agree with my position ( here or on other threads) but our job is to teach, not supervise sanitation because we are too lazy or apathetic to get to the root of the issue. |
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Kamal
Joined: 14 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| fundaes fundaes, everywhere. |
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balzor
Joined: 14 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Seoulio wrote: |
so when a kid f's up he cleans toilets? When a kid doesnt do his homework he cleans toilets?
What is a toilet worth offense?
You are there to TEACH students, there are plenty of valid punishments that do not involve demeaning the kid and making him clean toilets. You thikn the kid "learns his lesson from that" you think this teaches them anything.
So its not about "solving the issue" or figuring out whats causing the behaviour, its not about teaching about teaching the "whole child" its about hey buddy this ain't gonna fly heres a scrub brush get down on your knees and make that toilet bowl sparkle.
This is the same kid that is later going to take some kids school bag and take a dump in it. I've been there.
Its an EDUCATIONAL institution and you are there to educate not teach him janitorial skills as punishment It sends the wrong message and in most cases actually strengthens the kids desire to rebel further ( don't know of the study that said this, surprise surpirse right, but I took this very topic in University)
Saying that "we send the message that we can't punish the students" is a cop out, it sends the message you have no desire to actually help them or address the WHY of the behavior.
My worst student ever never cleaned a toilet, we did this thing called "talking" found out that his dyslexia and the fact that he felt his brother favored his younger brother, caused him to act out. We had a heart to heart, made some agreements that we both had to honor, give and take sort of thing, kid went from F grades to c grades inside of a month, and up to solid bs by the end of term.
I mean I know many don't agree with my position ( here or on other threads) but our job is to teach, not supervise sanitation because we are too lazy or apathetic to get to the root of the issue. |
It's not about the toilets for me, they are simply a means to an end. it's about kids learning that there are consequences to their actions. it could be cleaning toilets, getting suspended, getting your ass beat or simply getting more detention. whatever is the effective method for getting students to comprehend their bad actions is what needs to be done. Everyone is so quick to blame the school, but both the students and also their parents (who raise them right or wrong) should be held accountable too. By middle school, most kids know the difference between right and wrong and they certainly know when they are supposed to do something. they simply choose not to and don't care about the consequences. Maybe making them do janitorial work is a bit much, but maybe the threat was laid out and then ignored anyway forcing the faculty to stand by their threats. Bunch of whinny little punks IMO. "whaaa, we didn't do what the teacher asked us to and now we got punished!" |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| balzor wrote: |
| Seoulio wrote: |
so when a kid f's up he cleans toilets? When a kid doesnt do his homework he cleans toilets?
What is a toilet worth offense?
You are there to TEACH students, there are plenty of valid punishments that do not involve demeaning the kid and making him clean toilets. You thikn the kid "learns his lesson from that" you think this teaches them anything.
So its not about "solving the issue" or figuring out whats causing the behaviour, its not about teaching about teaching the "whole child" its about hey buddy this ain't gonna fly heres a scrub brush get down on your knees and make that toilet bowl sparkle.
This is the same kid that is later going to take some kids school bag and take a dump in it. I've been there.
Its an EDUCATIONAL institution and you are there to educate not teach him janitorial skills as punishment It sends the wrong message and in most cases actually strengthens the kids desire to rebel further ( don't know of the study that said this, surprise surpirse right, but I took this very topic in University)
Saying that "we send the message that we can't punish the students" is a cop out, it sends the message you have no desire to actually help them or address the WHY of the behavior.
My worst student ever never cleaned a toilet, we did this thing called "talking" found out that his dyslexia and the fact that he felt his brother favored his younger brother, caused him to act out. We had a heart to heart, made some agreements that we both had to honor, give and take sort of thing, kid went from F grades to c grades inside of a month, and up to solid bs by the end of term.
I mean I know many don't agree with my position ( here or on other threads) but our job is to teach, not supervise sanitation because we are too lazy or apathetic to get to the root of the issue. |
It's not about the toilets for me, they are simply a means to an end. it's about kids learning that there are consequences to their actions. it could be cleaning toilets, getting suspended, getting your ass beat or simply getting more detention. whatever is the effective method for getting students to comprehend their bad actions is what needs to be done. Everyone is so quick to blame the school, but both the students and also their parents (who raise them right or wrong) should be held accountable too. By middle school, most kids know the difference between right and wrong and they certainly know when they are supposed to do something. they simply choose not to and don't care about the consequences. Maybe making them do janitorial work is a bit much, but maybe the threat was laid out and then ignored anyway forcing the faculty to stand by their threats. Bunch of whinny little punks IMO. "whaaa, we didn't do what the teacher asked us to and now we got punished!" |
Okay so they learn there are consequence for actions, I don't think that they are unaware of this fatc, but when the punishment helps to reinforce the defiant behaviour and deosnt educate them on anything then its a bad punishment
Cleaning toilets, detention (if its just sitting and doing nothing) lines beating, detention are all bad punishments they reak of laziness on the teacher/school system that basically says its a time for time swap, and that they are too lazy to come up with educational teaching consequences.
Everyone is quick to blame the school, yes sure, when the school comes up with a weak punishment, one they have no right to enforce then we can blame the school. This is not to say that the parents and the students are off the hook, all three parties bear a responsibility in the upbringing of the student. BUt if the school is giving bad and ineffective punishments, and so are the parents, you can hardly blame the student when they act out in bitterness and resentment as a result.
you kind of make the point for me, if they don't do somthing or act out ( they are kids an teenagers, they dont alway act with though or consideration, its also largely hormonal) their only thought is " I am getting punished" Imagine if they were "educated" in some way through they were not punished, the had a "CONSEQUENCE"
Then somehow a positive comes out of the negative and you lesen the kids resentment.
As I said, I worked in a school where it was PUNISHMENT, they scrubbed toilets, they washed garbage cans, the carried loads of heavy things from the storeroom. These same kids would later vandalise the school, take kids bags and take a crap in it and do whatever they could secretly to balance out the equation.
Some of these kids get little or no attention at home and we have a huge opportunity to make thier education a somewhat posiive experience. And what do we do when they act on the patter they are familiar with, we simply say "here you go, scrub the toilets"
Awesome, so the teacher's don't care about them either. |
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balzor
Joined: 14 Feb 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| You make valid points. My question is How do you educate those who don't want to be educated? How do you teach those who WON'T be taught? |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| balzor wrote: |
| You make valid points. My question is How do you educate those who don't want to be educated? How do you teach those who WON'T be taught? |
DON'T!
People shouldn't be forced to do what they don't want to do. The kids who misbehave generally don't want to be at school. Obviously, most kids don't want to be there, but most kids can at least see the utility in it.
We need to give ALL kids more choice in their education. Public schooling has been an abject failure. It's expensive and it doesn't work. |
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Seoulio
Joined: 02 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| balzor wrote: |
| You make valid points. My question is How do you educate those who don't want to be educated? How do you teach those who WON'T be taught? |
This is one of te most complex questions in education. You are intellignet enough to know that there are no set or easy answers, and it is never a quick fix, there are ALWASY root issues here, ones you are not always going to be able to cut through, but love goes a lot further than hate.
I guess I would simply answer with DO you think getting them to wash toilets is going to either solve the problem or teach them anything at all?
As for Senior's answer, sadly, for some students the answer is don't. I don't condone giving up on a student but at the same time if you have done what you can you can not spread yourself too then either and if you take up every hard case in the school your other students will lose out.
BUt you dont just give the crap jobs it wastes your time, it is not productive and often makes the original situation worse than it was before |
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detourne_me
Joined: 26 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| balzor wrote: |
| You make valid points. My question is How do you educate those who don't want to be educated? How do you teach those who WON'T be taught? |
DON'T!
People shouldn't be forced to do what they don't want to do. The kids who misbehave generally don't want to be at school. Obviously, most kids don't want to be there, but most kids can at least see the utility in it.
We need to give ALL kids more choice in their education. Public schooling has been an abject failure. It's expensive and it doesn't work. |
Give the KIDS a choice in their education?? Are you out of your mind?
I don't doubt that there are huge problems in the modern education systems we have (see Sir Ken Robinson's TEDtalks) but there need to be standards for achieving comprehensive literacy among all students.
I'd say once students enter 2nd or 3rd grade middle school the parents should choose what sort of path their children should proceed upon.
Of course the parents must know all of the options for further education and the students must be fairly scored in a wide variety of tests determining skills and talents before such a choice is made. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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| detourne_me wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| balzor wrote: |
| You make valid points. My question is How do you educate those who don't want to be educated? How do you teach those who WON'T be taught? |
DON'T!
People shouldn't be forced to do what they don't want to do. The kids who misbehave generally don't want to be at school. Obviously, most kids don't want to be there, but most kids can at least see the utility in it.
We need to give ALL kids more choice in their education. Public schooling has been an abject failure. It's expensive and it doesn't work. |
Give the KIDS a choice in their education?? Are you out of your mind?
I don't doubt that there are huge problems in the modern education systems we have (see Sir Ken Robinson's TEDtalks) but there need to be standards for achieving comprehensive literacy among all students. |
Exactly where did I say that kids shouldn't learn how to read? Most kids WANT to learn how to read. Most kids pick it up pretty fast and I would say that most people don't improve in their reading ability, that much, passed middle school.
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I'd say once students enter 2nd or 3rd grade middle school the parents should choose what sort of path their children should proceed upon.
Of course the parents must know all of the options for further education and the students must be fairly scored in a wide variety of tests determining skills and talents before such a choice is made. |
I agree. Unfortunately very little choice exists. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jun 17, 2010 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Why did the kids misbehave? I'm going to guess the school is a shithole and the kids don't want to be there in the first place. They know that their schooling is failing them. They're not stupid. |
Probably has a lot more to do with how they were raised, Senior. That's why some kids still excel while others fail; they receive the same quality of education, but some partake in a culture of working to improve yourself, and others partake in a culture of, "Like, that ain't how it should go down."
When two kids finish high school with one knowing calculus and physics, and the other knowing some basic math and nothing about the sciences, it's ridiculous to say the school is to blame, unless they somehow systematically prevented the second student from learning what the first did. If that second kid really wanted to do something other than the basic curriculum, those programs exist in America. There's lots of choices availible to kids who actually want to focus on alternatives to the basic curriculum. The problem isn't kids who want to do something else, the problem is kids who want to do nothing because they were poorly raised.
Public school is no where near as one-size fits all as many people erroneously believe. Most of those people aren't aware of that fact because at heart they simply don't care, which in turn gives the lie to the idea that more choice would somehow fix everything.
| Senior wrote: |
| If the kids had a choice about what they could do with their time ... |
... they'd probably spend it hanging out, smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, and loitering. This isn't a school problem, it's a cultural problem. The American lower -- and a good portion of the middle -- class is simply not doing a good enough job of raising their children from a collective standpoint.
Many Americans are simply raising their children to be losers. It's sad, but it's true. And hey, if they want to keep doing that and then try to blame it on the schools -- either out of an attempt to avoid responsibility or out of a commitment to an anti-governmental agenda -- I hope they'll enjoy the consequences. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| Why did the kids misbehave? I'm going to guess the school is a shithole and the kids don't want to be there in the first place. They know that their schooling is failing them. They're not stupid. |
Probably has a lot more to do with how they were raised, Senior. That's why some kids still excel while others fail; they receive the same quality of education, but some partake in a culture of working to improve yourself, and others partake in a culture of, "Like, that ain't how it should go down." |
You are right. Upbringing has a lot to do with it. It isn't the only reason why kids excel or fail, though. As I've said before though, we pretty much have to take that as a given. We can't really change the student's upbringing by the time they arrive at school in the morning.
Do you really think every kid in America (or the western world) receives the same quality of education?
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| When two kids finish high school with one knowing calculus and physics, and the other knowing some basic math and nothing about the sciences, it's ridiculous to say the school is to blame, unless they somehow systematically prevented the second student from learning what the first did. If that second kid really wanted to do something other than the basic curriculum, those programs exist in America. There's lots of choices availible to kids who actually want to focus on alternatives to the basic curriculum. The problem isn't kids who want to do something else, the problem is kids who want to do nothing because they were poorly raised. |
Many, many students have no use for for calc and physics which is one of the reasons why they choose not to learn them. Are you saying there is one standard body of knowledge that is specifically appropriate for all people? Of course not, that is absurd. But that is the situation we find ourselves in. Here is the (state mandated) body of knowledge you must learn, or else. Is it surprising some people rebel against that?
Maybe there are some students who want to hang out and do nothing. I don't believe this is the case for most students, though. Most recognize that if they want to live a comfortable, productive life, they need an education. The problem arises when they see a lack of opportunities coupled with an education that doesn't jive with the few opportunities that are available. This is tied up with their home life as well, obviously.
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Public school is no where near as one-size fits all as many people erroneously believe. Most of those people aren't aware of that fact because at heart they simply don't care, which in turn gives the lie to the idea that more choice would somehow fix everything. |
School is more than just the programs that are offered. The institution itself matters. And many of these institutions simply aren't appealing to large groups of people.
Besides, how could choice possibly be a bad thing? We don't all drive cars from the same manufacturer. Why is a state monopoly on the manufacture of education a good thing?
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| Senior wrote: |
| If the kids had a choice about what they could do with their time ... |
... they'd probably spend it hanging out, smoking cigarettes, doing drugs, and loitering. This isn't a school problem, it's a cultural problem. The American lower -- and a good portion of the middle -- class is simply not doing a good enough job of raising their children from a collective standpoint. |
Obviously, I'm not advocating turning these people out into the street. There is plenty they can be doing. Govt regulations make it impossible for them to do a lot of these things though.
I don't believe parents are any worse now than in the past. I would say they are probably better.
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| Many Americans are simply raising their children to be losers. It's sad, but it's true. And hey, if they want to keep doing that and then try to blame it on the schools -- either out of an attempt to avoid responsibility or out of a commitment to an anti-governmental agenda -- I hope they'll enjoy the consequences. |
I don't see it. As I say, there isn't any reason to suspect American parents are any better or worse than at any other time in history. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
Do you really think every kid in America (or the western world) receives the same quality of education?
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No, but I feel every kid in America has access to at the very least a decent education should they chose to embrace it. Even at small, rural schools the programs available for a genuinely interested student might really surprise you. And not all of it is purely academic; sure there are options for things like the sciences, finance, and journalism, but there's also trade programs. At my own school of about 1200 kids, there were many supplementary apprenticeship programs available. I personally took a supplementary biotechnology course for college credit and laboratory work experience. In the entire region of over 300,000 people, do you know how many students attended that program? Eight, and I was the only one from my school. Not only was this program free of charge, but students were actually paid to partake it in.
Why aren't people swarming over opportunities like these? The sad answer is that they simply can't be bothered. The public system really does offer so many choices and opportunities to it's participants, and people just aren't taking advantage.
| Senior wrote: |
| Many, many students have no use for for calc and physics which is one of the reasons why they choose not to learn them. Are you saying there is one standard body of knowledge that is specifically appropriate for all people? Of course not, that is absurd. |
I agree with this, and will address it in response to ...
| Senior wrote: |
| But that is the situation we find ourselves in. |
It's really not, though. Students who want to attend college have some moderate requirements they must achieve, but students with no interest in college actually have a huge variety to select from. Yes, a small modicum of variety is required; some basic English, some basic math, and some very basic science are unavoidable if you wish to graduate. Beyond that, though, there's a lot of room for customization with regards to one's high school experience in America.
If you want to go heavy on math and sciences, you can. If you want to go heavy on English and the arts, you can. If you want to learn trade skills, you can. And if you want to learn more or less nothing, well, you can. And that's what a lot of kids are unfortunately choosing to do. Most schools even have work release programs that let you just go and get a menial job, attending school only a very few hours each day and getting the rest of your credits from working. Dropping out is even an option; there's a reason the GED exists, after all.
I really don't see how much more choice one could want. I agree with you, choice is a good thing. We have lots of it in the American system, far more than most people realize. You keep saying very little choice exists, and while it's understandable that you might not realize the specifics of American secondary education given your nationality, it's simply not true. I suppose more could exist, but when the marvelous opportunities currently available go so underutilized, I'm suspicious of labeling choice in some generic sense as a panacea.
| Senior wrote: |
| Maybe there are some students who want to hang out and do nothing. I don't believe this is the case for most students, though. Most recognize that if they want to live a comfortable, productive life, they need an education. |
This is a mindset that comes from being raised with a certain set of values. I've seen a lot of kids that lack it, unfortunately. I hesitate to guess at statistical breakdowns among children, but I feel like anyone who genuinely believes a good education is required for the life they want to live will at least get a bachelor's degree, and less than 30% of Americans have one.
| Senior wrote: |
| School is more than just the programs that are offered. The institution itself matters. And many of these institutions simply aren't appealing to large groups of people. |
Many public school programs actually involve learning at other institutions. To use my own experience as an example, my biotechnology courses were actually administered by a private corporation at the request of the government, in order to maximize the applicability of what we were learning to private sector employment. That seems like the kind of thing you'd really approve of, and it happened through a public school program.
| Senior wrote: |
| Besides, how could choice possibly be a bad thing? We don't all drive cars from the same manufacturer. |
I don't think it is a bad thing, I just don't see what choices you feel are absent that should be present. Moving from the abstract to the specific, what opportunities should American students have that they currently lack?
| Senior wrote: |
| Why is a state monopoly on the manufacture of education a good thing? |
It doesn't have a monopoly. It does have a strong competitive advantage due to being administered with tax dollars, but even public schools compete, both with public schools from other cities, and with private schools. One of the best things a city can do for its growth is to have schools with a good reputation.
Even beyond that, I've said I don't oppose alternative school models being tried. I am, however, wary of these calls for "more choices" when I know many of the choices that all ready exist go drastically underutilized. I wonder how many students even talk with their school counselor about their options. I know at my school it wasn't many, regardless of any outreach attempts.
| Senior wrote: |
| I don't believe parents are any worse now than in the past. I would say they are probably better. |
I think the combination of increased divorce rates and families where both parents work make for a worse environment for child rearing, totally independent of anything else. |
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NYC_Gal
Joined: 08 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| This is a country where beating is accepted. Beat them then. Don't make them touch poo, unless it's theirs. Ick! |
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