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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
Captain Crazy is the only one making any sense, yet again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEzHXWAKjUk
Yes. The Ottoman Empire committed genocide. The US Congress passing a talking point about it doesn't help anyone. The Turks and Armenians have to find their own way forward.
Hey, fun story. Dennis Hastert tabled a bill about this in the 90's. That was before he took bags full of money in bribes from the Turks (which the FBI confirmed and even secretly monitored the transaction). |
In regards to your last point, that is yet another difference between the US and Turkey. The US gov't hasn't paid any foreign politicians to shut up about its past actions against a minority. Turkey has also paid off people in academia here in the States. One example is NYU and creating a Turkish Studies program. It then used that program to promote the idea that the killings were justified by supposed Armenian agression.
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The "studies" programs are all like that. Middle East, Arab, Islamic, womyn, gay, etc are all the creation of some interest group that wants to control the message. Academics like to scream about their independence. They're delusional. Chomsky argues that academics just serve powerful interests. He's right. Even the radical sociology prof is really just a tool of public sector unions etc.
Anyhoo, I've lived in Turkey. The people there are nationalistic and ethnocentric to the extreme. The whole genocide thing is an issue of pride to them, and I think we all know it is dumb to get in between a third rate culture/country and their pride.
I might have mentioned this at some point in the past (can't remember exactly) but I really despise islam. Extremely so. Turkey is about as good as islam gets. The US shouldn't be 1) encouraging Turkey to enter the EU or 2) antagonizing them. Turkey is the natural leader of the "muslim world". Not Saudi or Iran. Turkey. Any influence in the region should be focused on that goal. Turks are generally agreeable and rational. They need to be holding the islamic rudder. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
Captain Crazy is the only one making any sense, yet again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEzHXWAKjUk
Yes. The Ottoman Empire committed genocide. The US Congress passing a talking point about it doesn't help anyone. The Turks and Armenians have to find their own way forward.
Hey, fun story. Dennis Hastert tabled a bill about this in the 90's. That was before he took bags full of money in bribes from the Turks (which the FBI confirmed and even secretly monitored the transaction). |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Turkey's prime minister has threatened to deport 100,000 Armenian migrants, amid renewed tensions over Turkish mass killings of Armenians in World War I.
Recent resolutions in the US and Sweden have called the killings "genocide".
Recep Tayyip Erdogan told the BBC that of 170,000 Armenians living in Turkey "70,000 are Turkish citizens".
"We are turning a blind eye to the remaining 100,000... Tomorrow, I may tell these 100,000 to go back to their country, if it becomes necessary." |
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8572934.stm
I guess that's one way of taking a stand. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:05 am Post subject: |
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http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/06/16/israel_lobby_genocide_armenia/index.html
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Some of the most powerful leaders in the American Jewish community have stepped forward in recent days to acknowledge the 1915 Armenian Genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turkey.
On the surface, this would seem unremarkable. As victims of the Holocaust, Jews might be expected to stand beside the Armenians and their tragedy. After all, the massacres and death marches across Anatolia during the fog of World War I became a model for Hitler himself.
But this sudden embrace of the Armenian Genocide actually marks a shameless turnaround for the major American Jewish organizations. For decades, they have helped Turkey cover up its murderous past. Each year, the Israel lobby in the U.S. has played a quiet but pivotal role in pressuring Congress, the State Department and successive presidents to defeat simple congressional resolutions commemorating the 1.5 million Armenian victims.
Genocide denial is not a pretty thing, they now concede, but they did it for Israel. They did it out of gratitude for Turkey being Israel�s one and only Muslim ally.
Now the game has changed. Israel and Turkey are locked in a feud over the Palestine-bound flotilla that was intercepted on the high seas by Israel. Turkey is outraged over the killing of nine of its citizens on board. Israel is outraged that a country with Turkey�s past would dare judge the morality of the Jewish state.
So the Armenian Genocide has become a new weapon in the hands of Israel and its supporters in the U.S., a way to threaten Turkey, a conniver�s get-even: Hey, Turkey, if you want to play nasty with Israel, if you want to lecture us about violations of human rights, we can easily go the other way on the Armenian Genocide. No more walking the halls of Congress to plead your shameful case.
If I sound cynical about all this, maybe I am.
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A rift over genocide denial has begun to crack open inside the Jewish community. If you listen closely, you can hear the stirrings of a debate.
On one side were the conservative, Likud-devoted lions of the major Jewish organizations who championed the virtues of Turkey, the first Muslim country to formally recognize Israel. As long as Ankara continued to cooperate in Israeli military exercises and purchase Israeli war machines, it deserved special treatment. Israel itself had adopted an official policy of denying the Armenian Genocide. Its supporters in the U.S. were obliged to do the same.
On the other side were more progressive Jews who couldn�t stomach the notion that Holocaust survivors were working so diligently to erase the memory of another people�s genocide. How could Jewish leaders whose every sense was tuned to detect the Holocaust deniers in our midst, who had gone to the ends of the earth to hunt down Hitler�s henchmen, now enlist with the patrons of genocide?
It was the sort of hypocrisy that made the vow of "Never Again" sound exclusive, a shelter for just one.
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But these same scholars were mostly silent when it came to the behind-the-scenes role that Israel and its lobby in the U.S -- the Anti-Defamation League, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, neoconservative think tanks and Bush administration hawks -- were playing in this denial.
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Then I found my way to the equivocators and deniers who sat at the helms of the major American Jewish organizations. None was more blunt than Abraham Foxman, the head of the Anti-Defamation League in New York. The Armenian Genocide had become his own convenient cudgel to keep Turkey in line.
Foxman had just returned from a meeting with Turkish military and government leaders to discuss pressuring Congress, the State Department and President Bush to turn back the genocide resolution once again.
"Our focus is Israel," he explained. "If helping Turkey helps Israel, then that�s what we�re in the business of doing."
But such a bottom line would seem an uncomfortable place for a Jewish leader to be when the question was genocide.
"Was it genocide?" he said. "It was wartime. Things get messy."
He questioned whether a bill in Congress would help "reconcile" the differences between Turks and Armenians, as though the whole thing was a marital spat that needed some calming down.
"The Turks and Armenians need to revisit their past. The Jewish community shouldn�t be the arbiter of that history. And I don�t think the U.S. Congress should be the arbiter, either."
He was lifting lines right out of the Turkish playbook. I almost had to revisit his website to make sure that the ADL was still in the business of fighting not only anti-Semitism but "bigotry and extremism" and "securing justice and fair treatment to all."
I pointed out that the genocide had already been documented as a fact by many prominent historians. And Congress recognizes all sorts of people's history. Resolutions commemorating the victims of the Holocaust, for instance.
"You�re not suggesting that an Armenian Genocide is the same as the Holocaust, are you?"
I tried to draw the parallels that the scholars had drawn, but Foxman saw it as an affront. The oneness of the Holocaust was being debased by Armenians looking for a piggyback ride.
"Are you Armenian?" he finally asked.
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Last week, four Jewish professors from Georgetown and Bar Ilan universities urged Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide. Take that, Turkey!
How will Ankara react? Will fear of genocide recognition, which it considers a national security issue, eventually cause Turkey to soften its accusations of apartheid against Israel and become a compliant ally again?
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Only next April, the season of the return of the genocide resolution, will tell.
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Foxman meets with the Turkish military to discuss these things? For whom does American policy exist? The hypocrisy is as thick as can be. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/06/15/turkey_and_the_neocons
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It couldn't be more predictable. Back when Israel and Turkey were strategic allies with extensive military-to-military ties, prominent neoconservatives were vocal defenders of the Turkish government and groups like the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and AIPAC encouraged Congress not to pass resolutions that would have labeled what happened to the Armenians at the hands of the Turks during World War I a "genocide."
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The fact that the ADL was in effect protecting another country against the charge of genocide is more than a little ironic, but who ever said that political organizations had to be ethically consistent? Once relations between Israel and Turkey began to fray, however -- fueled primarily by Turkish anger over Israel's treatment of the Palestinians -- the ADL and AIPAC withdrew their protection and Congressional defenders of Israel began switching sides, too.
Last week Jim Lobe published a terrific piece at InterPress Service, detailing how prominent neoconservatives have switched from being strong supporters (and in some cases well-paid consultants) of the Turkish government to being vehement critics. He lays out the story better than I could, but I have a few comments to add.
First, if this doesn't convince you that virtually all neoconservatives are deeply Israeli-centric, then nothing will. This affinity is hardly a secret; indeed, neocon pundit Max Boot once declared that support for Israel was a "key tenet" of neoconservatism. But the extent of their attachment to Israel is sometimes disguised by the claim that what they really care about is freedom and democracy, and therefore they support Israel simply because it is "the only democracy in the Middle East."
But now we see the neoconservatives turning on Turkey, even though it is a well-functioning democracy, a member of NATO, and a strong ally of the United States. Of course,Turkey's democracy isn't perfect, but show me one that is. The neocons have turned from friends of Turkey to foes for one simple reason: Israel. Specifically, the Turkish government has been openly critical of Israel's conduct toward the Palestinians, beginning with the blockade of Gaza, ramping up after the brutal bombardment of Gaza in 2008-2009, and culminating in the lethal IDF attack on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla. As Lobe shows, a flock of prominent neoconservatives are now busily demonizing Turkey, and in some cases calling for its expulsion from NATO.
Thus, whether a state is democratic or not matters little for the neocons; what matters for them is whether a state backs Israel or not. So if you're still wondering why so many neoconservatives worked overtime to get the U.S. to invade Iraq -- even though Osama bin Laden was in Afghanistan or Pakistan -- and why they are now pushing for war with Iran, well, there's your answer.
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One last comment. Neoconservatives usually portray American and Israeli interests as essentially identical: In their eyes, what is good for Israel is good for the United States and vice versa. This claim makes unconditional U.S. support seem like a good idea, and it also insulates them from the charge that they are promoting Israel's interests over America's. After all, if the interests of the two states are really one and the same, then by definition there can be no conflict of interest, which means that the "dual loyalty" issue (a term I still don't like) doesn't arise.
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The ethnocentrism on display here is off the charts. |
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