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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
There's no need to create a new, separate law that prevents an individual from placing himself in a situation where he could break existing laws.
Acting recklessly in in traffic, whether on foot or in a vehicle, warrants police intervention. Darting across the street when a reasonable opening is available should not.
Owning and carrying a firearm should not be illegal. Using the firearm to kill someone outside of self-defense should be.
Being a racist should not be illegal. Attacking someone of a different color should be. The resulting punishment should not be exacerbated by the assailant's racism. |
Crashing your car into someone is illegal whether you're sober or drunk. Should be legalize drunk driving and simply use the other laws on the book to prosecute when a law-breaking act actually occurs? I don't think so; by illegalizing drunk driving, we allow law enforcement to act proactively to prevent problems from happening.
Obviously, jaywalking is no where near as severe as drunk driving. None the less, there's a similar principle at work: allowing police to respond to a potentially problematic type of behavior which could lead to more serious repercussions. Police accusing you of "being reckless in traffic" is very subjective. Police accusing you of jaywalking is absolutely objective. I think it's a perfectly fine law to have on the books. I also think the fine is small enough to prevent it from being abused; police generally aren't going to waste their time with jaywalkers unless they think there's good reason. Given this was filmed in front of what looked like a multi-lane road with a reasonable amount of traffic, the cop probably felt it wasn't a good place to jaywalk. She might not have even gotten a ticket if she hadn't tried to just walk away from the cop (though given she had a criminal record, she might have been slapped with one).
I agree with the general principle of simplifying our laws. I just don't think jaywalking is a place where such simplification is needed; it's a very simple, objective law that I feel has some utility. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Crashing your car into someone is illegal whether you're sober or drunk. Should be legalize drunk driving and simply use the other laws on the book to prosecute when a law-breaking act actually occurs? I don't think so; by illegalizing drunk driving, we allow law enforcement to act proactively to prevent problems from happening. |
Consider this: driving under the influence of small amounts of alcohol is not illegal. Only when a person has consumed enough to raise his blood alcohol level past a certain threshold do we deem his abilities impaired enough to be reckless. Similarly, a person simply walking across the road should not be enough to solicit police intervention. Only when the individual does so in a reckless manner should the police need to respond. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Crashing your car into someone is illegal whether you're sober or drunk. Should be legalize drunk driving and simply use the other laws on the book to prosecute when a law-breaking act actually occurs? I don't think so; by illegalizing drunk driving, we allow law enforcement to act proactively to prevent problems from happening. |
Consider this: driving under the influence of small amounts of alcohol is not illegal. Only when a person has consumed enough to raise his blood alcohol level past a certain threshold do we deem his abilities impaired enough to be reckless. Similarly, a person simply walking across the road should not be enough to solicit police intervention. Only when the individual does so in a reckless manner should the police need to respond. |
I agree, but that's more or less the result of the law in question. Most of us jaywalk quite frequently; I've jaywalked in front of police officers with no repercussions. I think police generally do a good job of using their discretion with regards to this law, probably since the fine is sufficiently small such that it's not worth their time to bother unless someone is behaving in a problematic fashion. A simple, straightforward jaywalking law seems unproblematic to me, and most compatible with any drive to simplify the law. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Update: (So what exactly did she say? "I am sorry, officer, for getting punched"? "I am sorry my face hit your fist?")
Punched Seattle teen apologizes to police officer
AP 1 hr 45 mins ago
SEATTLE � A Seattle teen shown on video shoving a police officer who then punched her in the face has apologized to the officer in a private meeting.
Seattle police say Officer Ian Walsh accepted the apology Friday.
Separately, the King County prosecutor charged the 17-year-old girl as a juvenile with third-degree assault, which is punishable by a maximum 30 days in detention.
The incident happened Monday as the teen was intervening in a friend's arrest for jaywalking. James Kelly of the Urban League of Seattle says he requested Friday's meeting between the teen and the officer at a community center to help calm the situation.
Police have said the department's civilian-led Office of Professional Accountability is investigating the 39-year-old officer's actions. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| I agree, but that's more or less the result of the law in question. Most of us jaywalk quite frequently; I've jaywalked in front of police officers with no repercussions. I think police generally do a good job of using their discretion with regards to this law, probably since the fine is sufficiently small such that it's not worth their time to bother unless someone is behaving in a problematic fashion. A simple, straightforward jaywalking law seems unproblematic to me, and most compatible with any drive to simplify the law. |
If the jaywalking offense were amended to reflect a pedestrian version of impeding traffic, I would have no issue with it, as it would essentially be what you're describing: police using their discretion (hopefully within the bounds of some official guidelines) to determine when a pedestrian crossing is reckless. I believe some states and counties have the law written as such, but other areas *cough* New Orleans *cough* have a much more liberal law written in such a manner as to allow police to harass citizens and tourists. |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Good on her. She is being charged with a minor crime for shoving an officer, and now that she has owned up to it, she will probably be let off with a slap on the wrist.
The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow.
| bacasper wrote: |
Update: (So what exactly did she say? "I am sorry, officer, for getting punched"? "I am sorry my face hit your fist?")
Punched Seattle teen apologizes to police officer
AP 1 hr 45 mins ago
SEATTLE � A Seattle teen shown on video shoving a police officer who then punched her in the face has apologized to the officer in a private meeting.
Seattle police say Officer Ian Walsh accepted the apology Friday.
Separately, the King County prosecutor charged the 17-year-old girl as a juvenile with third-degree assault, which is punishable by a maximum 30 days in detention.
The incident happened Monday as the teen was intervening in a friend's arrest for jaywalking. James Kelly of the Urban League of Seattle says he requested Friday's meeting between the teen and the officer at a community center to help calm the situation.
Police have said the department's civilian-led Office of Professional Accountability is investigating the 39-year-old officer's actions. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
True on her, but the fact that the officer thought that physically restraining the girl over jaywalking makes me question his training. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
True on her, but the fact that the officer thought that physically restraining the girl over jaywalking makes me question his training. |
How about physically restraiing a person for not following instructions? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
True on her, but the fact that the officer thought that physically restraining the girl over jaywalking makes me question his training. |
Abstractly I can understand what you're saying; while jaywalking can very rarely lead to real problems, generally it is a trivial offense. However, I suspect -- though am not sure -- that a part of police officers training is that, if you witness a crime and intervene, that you cannot simply let the individual in question walk away from you.
Do you feel that one should simply be able to walk away from a police officer who observes you committing a crime? I have little doubt that he initially asked her to stop, either to speak with her or to issue her a ticket. She did not comply. How can the police function if one can simply shrug and walk away from them? |
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BoholDiver
Joined: 03 Oct 2009
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:26 am Post subject: |
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To answer your last question, we'd have Korean-type police officers.
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
True on her, but the fact that the officer thought that physically restraining the girl over jaywalking makes me question his training. |
Abstractly I can understand what you're saying; while jaywalking can very rarely lead to real problems, generally it is a trivial offense. However, I suspect -- though am not sure -- that a part of police officers training is that, if you witness a crime and intervene, that you cannot simply let the individual in question walk away from you.
Do you feel that one should simply be able to walk away from a police officer who observes you committing a crime? I have little doubt that he initially asked her to stop, either to speak with her or to issue her a ticket. She did not comply. How can the police function if one can simply shrug and walk away from them? |
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kabrams
Joined: 15 Mar 2008
Location: your Dad's house
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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From my understanding of the story, the kids/young adults actually didn't walk against a green light. They walked on red outside of the crosswalk.
Anyway...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012122660_coppunch16m.html
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| "The SPD has a long history of allowing jaywalking citations to escalate into use-of-force situations," Shaw said. "The pattern is very predictable: The officer sees a jaywalker, orders the person to come to him, gets angry when the jaywalker either doesn't respond or argues, and ends up either in a physical confrontation or an arrest for an obstruction charge or both." |
Interesting. I'd like to see the numbers/stats on this.
The girl was wrong to attack/push the police officer, and it seems like she's had some trouble in her life, so maybe she's super paranoid or just plain angry.
I thought there were better ways to diffuse a situation than punching someone in the face. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| kabrams wrote: |
From my understanding of the story, the kids/young adults actually didn't walk against a green light. They walked on red outside of the crosswalk.
Anyway...
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2012122660_coppunch16m.html
| Quote: |
| "The SPD has a long history of allowing jaywalking citations to escalate into use-of-force situations," Shaw said. "The pattern is very predictable: The officer sees a jaywalker, orders the person to come to him, gets angry when the jaywalker either doesn't respond or argues, and ends up either in a physical confrontation or an arrest for an obstruction charge or both." |
Interesting. I'd like to see the numbers/stats on this.
The girl was wrong to attack/push the police officer, and it seems like she's had some trouble in her life, so maybe she's super paranoid or just plain angry.
I thought there were better ways to diffuse a situation than punching someone in the face. |
Exactly, makes me question their training. The police need to do things where they are less hated by the community more than they need to enforce minor laws that if brought to court would probably slide. The girl should have stopped, but the officer was in the wrong to forcibly restrain her. The second girl was straight up stupid, should she have been punched, no, do I feel sorry for her, not particularly. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| BoholDiver wrote: |
| The first girl, if she were a reasonable person, she might have talked to the officer and also be let off with a warning. Who's to say the officer was going to arrest her or give her a fine. Maybe his intention was to simply give her a verbal warning and it all blew up b/c she's a cow. |
Even worst case she would have just gotten a ticket for a very small amount of money. The fact that she thought this was worth fighting with a cop over really makes me question her up-bringing. |
True on her, but the fact that the officer thought that physically restraining the girl over jaywalking makes me question his training. |
How about physically restraiing a person for not following instructions? |
The fact that Jay-walking was an issue in the first place. Should I follow instructions when the instructions are asinine just because it comes from a police officer? Probably, but it's an abuse of authority. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| If you've got a problem with the law, seek to change the law. |
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