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JMO
Joined: 18 Jul 2006
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
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| The problem isn't the quality of players or the strategy, the problem is mental. They look like they've given up already. Two games when they were clearly the stronger team but they just lacked desire. |
I have to disagree.
This whole "we could win it all if we actually tried" excuse is getting really REALLY old now. I think it is time to just accept that English players, without the support of other world class superstars, are just plain mediocre and slow so it IS a question of talent. They aren't bad but they certainly aren't very good unless they have a stacked team of world class talent to play with. The English media has constantly overhyped the English team for decades now and this world cup shows that it is time to wake up and smell the coffee beans. England is at best a 2nd/probably 3rd class team. The results speak for themselves. English fans should rejoice if they make it out of their group with the current level of talent they have. |
These guys have all done it in the champions league. That is the highest calibre of competition we know of.
I don't think playing with a makeshift squad at the end of a long season really proves anything. On talent I'd say England are at the high end of the second tier.
Personally though I don't think Capello is a good tournament manager. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| misher wrote: |
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| The problem isn't the quality of players or the strategy, the problem is mental. They look like they've given up already. Two games when they were clearly the stronger team but they just lacked desire. |
I have to disagree.
This whole "we could win it all if we actually tried" excuse is getting really REALLY old now. I think it is time to just accept that English players, without the support of other world class superstars, are just plain mediocre and slow so it IS a question of talent. They aren't bad but they certainly aren't very good unless they have a stacked team of world class talent to play with. The English media has constantly overhyped the English team for decades now and this world cup shows that it is time to wake up and smell the coffee beans. England is at best a 2nd/probably 3rd class team. The results speak for themselves. English fans should rejoice if they make it out of their group with the current level of talent they have. |
Well, if they lose I would at least like to be able to say 'They gave it their all'. And you can argue about whether the talent measures up to teams like Argentina or Brazil, but the reason England drew against the US and Algeria was not that they were less talented. Probably it was because, like you, they'd decided they weren't good enough in advance, and you'll never get anywhere like that.
Still, it's not over yet! |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 1:07 am Post subject: |
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In my lifetime, even by the generally disappointing standards of England, the performances against the US and Algeria were by far the worst I've ever seen.
| Misher wrote: |
| I think it is time to just accept that English players, without the support of other world class superstars, are just plain mediocre and slow so it IS a question of talent. |
Spot on. Imagine how bad the Premiership would be if such foreign talent, by decree, had to make way for even more English dross? |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:09 am Post subject: |
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I know that us Brits are nation of haters sometimes, but that was well below acceptable for players who consider themselves part of the footballing elite. Skill levels amongst English players are woeful in comparison to their European and latin-American counterparts, and the English players look like dinosaurs.
Ball retention, short passing and moving, and technical ability are not at the core of the English game, so why do England need a foreign coach to try and instill this in their game? England's strength lie in other departments, so they should have a manager who understands this. Bring back Terry Venables! |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:58 am Post subject: |
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| harryh wrote: |
| Sir Bobby HAD to change things around and Lineker was unleashed. |
They're lacking a goalscorer. I don't see that they have ever quite replaced Lineker or Beckham.
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| maybe they are hyped, and also the fact that they are surrounded by great 'overseas' players at their clubs. |
They enjoy world class players and quality at the premiership but as you suggest...most of it is imported. |
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Mariella713
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Well they're on about �90,000 a week, can you blame them for not being "hungry" enough to win? 
I don't know what happened to Wayne Rooney, he used to be wonderboy. I used to see real passion for the game from him, but now...he's just thinking about finishing the match and grabbing some fish & chips  |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| Misher, if England were so ridiculously bad, how is it they are one of the seeded teams in this cup? Stop talking nonsense. As for the English media hyping the England team, generally the opposite is true. The British press love slagging off the national team. It's a tradition. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| Sergio Stefanuto wrote: |
| Spot on. Imagine how bad the Premiership would be if such foreign talent, by decree, had to make way for even more English dross? |
My dad long argued that this is actually part England's problem. The premiership league is so lucrative, and so eager to attract world class players, that not enough local talent is nurtured and developed to play at a high level.
The other problem was Thatcherism. Under your beloved old Thatch, schools and councils were encouraged to sell off much of their playing fields and public land (which was then transferred over to the private sector) and there are far less places now for young working class lads to kick a ball about. Do you see them kicking balls about around the estates like they once did? Remember, football is the working man's game. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
My dad long argued that this is actually part England's problem. The premiership league is so lucrative, and so eager to attract world class players, that not enough local talent is nurtured and developed to play at a high level.
The other problem was Thatcherism. Under your beloved old Thatch, schools and councils were encouraged to sell off much of their playing fields and public land (which was then transferred over to the private sector) and there are far less places now for young working class lads to kick a ball about. Do you see them kicking balls about around the estates like they once did? Remember, football is the working man's game. |
What do The 1974 World Cup, The 1978 World Cup, The 1972 European Championships, and The 1976 European Championships have in common?
Two things: (1) England qualified for none of them, and (2) they occurred before Thatcherism and the foreign influx. Blimey, the 70's were grim.
By contrast, let's observe English performances internationally post-Thatcher and during the foreign influx (early 90's to the present day)
1990 World Cup: Semi-finals
1994 World Cup: didn't qualify
1998 World Cup: last 16
2002 World Cup: Quarter-finals
2006 World Cup: Quarter-finals
1992 European Championships: 1st round
1996 European Championships: Semi-finals
2000 European Championships: 1st round
2004 European Championships: last 16
2008 European Championships: didn't qualify
This shows that there's no relationship at all between poor English performances in international football and Thatcherism and/or a large number of foreign players playing in the English top flight. If anything, the exact opposite relationship holds. Certainly, England from 2008 to the present day have gone through their worst spell since that particularly dire time in the 1970s, but any explanation would likely be more sophisticated than conveniently blaming foreigners and Margaret Thatcher. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| The other problem was Thatcherism. Under your beloved old Thatch, schools and councils were encouraged to sell off much of their playing fields and public land (which was then transferred over to the private sector) and there are far less places now for young working class lads to kick a ball about |
Have you been to cities in Italy? The average school in Rome or Naples doesn't exactly have a lot of green playing fields in the immediate vicinity. Most high schools have one small concrete area which doubles as a basketball and five aside pitch. Yet they still seem to do ok in the world cup year after year. I've never been to Argentina or Brazil but I don't imagine the situation is much better there. |
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Sergio Stefanuto
Joined: 14 May 2009
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:10 am Post subject: |
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| I wrote: |
| By contrast, let's observe English performances internationally post-Thatcher and during the foreign influx (early 90's to the present day) |
Actually, the Bosman ruling, which had a dramatic influence on the number of foreign players in England, occurred in 1995, so the dire days of Graham Taylor circa 1993 are also excluded from the analysis. Post-Bosman, England's performances in international football were, on balance, significantly better than in the days when clubs were under more pressure to recruit more Englishmen. |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Misher, if England were so ridiculously bad, how is it they are one of the seeded teams in this cup? Stop talking nonsense. As for the English media hyping the England team, generally the opposite is true. The British press love slagging off the national team. It's a tradition. |
The seedings are absolute bollocks and one has to take them with a grain of salt. So are the betting odds. If you really think that England is a favorite whenever the WC comes around, go right ahead and continue such delusions of grandeur. England isn't even in the top 10 in terms of individual talent or team play. That is quite sad considering how important football is culturally in King George's land.
Also, the media slag off the team because they have already set the premise that this WC is finally the one where England shows their true colours. You have it backwards. The expectations are simply too high and after 50 years of mediocrity the media resorts to slagging off the national team because once again they have failed everyone with in my opinion a perfectly acceptable round of 16 finish, given the homegrown talent available. Why don't they just relax and lower their standards? |
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misher
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Well, if they lose I would at least like to be able to say 'They gave it their all'. And you can argue about whether the talent measures up to teams like Argentina or Brazil, but the reason England drew against the US and Algeria was not that they were less talented. Probably it was because, like you, they'd decided they weren't good enough in advance, and you'll never get anywhere like that.
Still, it's not over yet! |
It is called being realistic and evaluating the actual talent of your team without resorting to the "but but but...they play on the best Premiership teams! They are superstars! Why don't they play like that for the national team!? They just don't try and have no heart. Yes that must be it."
THe English team should be in the world cup no doubt and if they got past the round of 16 I'd be rejoicing. I'm not saying they're going to fail 100%. My standards are just a bit lower.
If I were Swedish or Czech I wouldn't be having a conniption every WC because my team just can't compete with the best teams in the world. I'd expect maybe a round of 16 and that is it. ANything else is gravy. The more English fans lower the expectations and stop looking for stupid excuses ad nauseam other than they just don't have the talent the better the WC is going to be for them. |
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hwa jang shil
Joined: 20 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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I think my expectations pre-tournament were rather reasonable, I expected us to go out in the 1/4s again as soon as we met Argentina or France, but I'm still bitterly disappointed at what I've seen.
And what happened to the thread (just after USA game) where some chap was arguing that apart from Torres/Drogba and one-other, there were no foreign players in the premiership that would get in the England starting eleven. I'd really like to continue that discussion in light of Friday's debacle. |
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Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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I'm an American who really gets into soccer, at least during the World Cup. It has to be the most exciting sporting event in the world - a shame it only takes place every 4 years.
But I have a question for the English fans. I know this thread is about your disappointment in England's overall play, but my question is more about the uncertainties you have about the goalie position. From everything I have read or heard you have had these uncertainties even before Green made his gaffe.
Here is what Soccernet says about Green:
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| Not amongst the top-rated keepers in world football but one of the best England can offer. |
So here is my question: How can a tradition rich country and league like England and Premier not produce a solid, creme of the crop, world-class, World Cup goalie? It seems like you would have the opposite problem, having so many great ones that it would be difficult to choose the best.
On another note, England still controls its own destiny, so don't give up hope just yet. They could still go deep into the tournament. |
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