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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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I'm teaching the continuous form this week and I wrapped it up with a writing activity to give them more practice. But I've gotten a TON of flak from my KETs who keep arguing that you can't combine different grammar tenses in a compound sentence. They keep saying stuff like its "Unnatural". Even when I explained to them, usually when you combine tenses, it looks like this:
Matt was running while Jim sleeps (Past & Present)
(They agreed to this)
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But, since my kids are so LOW. We're using this:
He was running while she is sleeping. (Past & Present)
(They disagree with this)
I don't think it sounds odd, especially if its in the 3rd person. I usually defer to them on grammar issues, since its the only thing they're good at.
In any case, are they right?
Please give any input. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| But I've gotten a TON of flak from my KETs who keep arguing that you can't combine different grammar tenses in a compound sentence. |
They're right. You can't combine the past progressive with the present simple in compound sentences - verbs in compound sentences have to be used in sequence.
a) Matt was running while Jim was sleeping.
b) Matt ran while Jim slept.
c) Matt was running while Jim slept.
d) Matt ran while Jim was sleeping.
But, not:
*Matt was running while Jim sleeps.
| winterfall wrote: |
| He was running while she is sleeping. (Past & Present) |
Again, the verb tense in the first clause has to logically match the verb tense in the second clause, so:
e) He was running while she was sleeping.
f) He ran while she slept.
g) He was running while she slept.
h) He ran while she was sleeping.
*He was running while she is sleeping.
| winterfall wrote: |
I don't think it sounds odd, especially if its in the 3rd person. I usually defer to them on grammar issues, since its the only thing they're good at.
In any case, are they right?
Please give any input. |
In the dialect of English that I speak, standard NA English, your example sentences sound wrong. Check out: Using Verb Tenses in Sequence. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Why would you want to combine different tenses in compound sentences with low level kids? All the examples you gave were wrong including the ones your co teachers agreed with.
With past continuous you should contrast the different aspects, continuous v simple to show short v longer activities.
E.g. the phone rang while I was having a shower.
You can talk about two longer activities happening at the same time,
E.g. 'I was singing while I was having a shower' but there's no need to bring that up at a low level
With present continous you could contrast routine v current activity.
E.g. I play tennis every sunday but I'm playing football now etc.
Keep things simple |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, I'll change the lesson now.
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
Other than that keep things simple |
I completely agree with you. But its a tech school. It has to be level appropriate AND SEEM age appropriate. Or they're cause problems. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| winterfall wrote: |
I'm teaching the continuous form this week and I wrapped it up with a writing activity to give them more practice. But I've gotten a TON of flak from my KETs who keep arguing that you can't combine different grammar tenses in a compound sentence. They keep saying stuff like its "Unnatural". Even when I explained to them, usually when you combine tenses, it looks like this:
Matt was running while Jim sleeps (Past & Present)
(They agreed to this)
-------------------------------------------------------------
But, since my kids are so LOW. We're using this:
He was running while she is sleeping. (Past & Present)
(They disagree with this)
I don't think it sounds odd, especially if its in the 3rd person. I usually defer to them on grammar issues, since its the only thing they're good at.
In any case, are they right?
Please give any input. |
...as the above posters mentioned...the sentences are incorrect.
The rule about not mixing tenses is also incorrect.
Both tense and aspect can be changed according to the context of the sentence...some good examples were given.
Just on a grammar note...the examples being used in this thread are not compound sentences...they are complex sentences.
The only example of a compound sentence in this thread was edf's final one.(comma optional)
Nonetheless, both compound and complex sentences may take different tenses and aspect in either their independent or dependent clauses depending on the context and the sequence of events.
I think the rule your KET's might been confusing this with is the rule of parallelism...or parallel structure...which is quite different than what is being discussed in this thread.
Last edited by The Cosmic Hum on Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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Those sentences sound very unnatural. Running cannot occur in the past while sleeping occurs in the present, as they are both concrete actions. There are certain contexts well a past and present verb can be together, especially when one of the verbs is a state of mind. This can occur in both complex and compound sentences.
Example of complex sentence: "I knew that E-Mart closes at 12 every night."
Example of compoud sentence: "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father hates that."
But of course, you could not say, "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father kicks me." |
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winterfall
Joined: 21 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
Those sentences sound very unnatural. Running cannot occur in the past while sleeping occurs in the present, as they are both concrete actions. There are certain contexts well a past and present verb can be together, especially when one of the verbs is a state of mind. This can occur in both complex and compound sentences.
Example of complex sentence: "I knew that E-Mart closes at 12 every night."
Example of compoud sentence: "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father hates that."
But of course, you could not say, "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father kicks me." |
The explanation to use things in sequence made sense. But defining things as concrete actions doesn't. The continuous form doesn't have an end and it can be reasonably assumed it will continue into the future unless a specific clause is mentioned.
For example
"I am running"
Suggests you'll keep on running. Otherwise the guy would've just said "I am running for an hour"
vs.
I ran
That's definitively past with a clear cut ending. It happened sometime in the past, you don't know when or for how long but you know it stopped.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule |
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lichtarbeiter
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| winterfall wrote: |
| lichtarbeiter wrote: |
Those sentences sound very unnatural. Running cannot occur in the past while sleeping occurs in the present, as they are both concrete actions. There are certain contexts well a past and present verb can be together, especially when one of the verbs is a state of mind. This can occur in both complex and compound sentences.
Example of complex sentence: "I knew that E-Mart closes at 12 every night."
Example of compoud sentence: "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father hates that."
But of course, you could not say, "I walked in the house with my muddy shoes on, and my father kicks me." |
The explanation to use things in sequence made sense. But defining things as concrete actions doesn't. The continuous form doesn't have an end and it can be reasonably assumed it will continue into the future unless a specific clause is mentioned.
For example
"I am running"
Suggests you'll keep on running. Otherwise the guy would've just said "I am running for an hour"
vs.
I ran
That's definitively past with a clear cut ending. It happened sometime in the past, you don't know when or for how long but you know it stopped.
Unless I'm misunderstanding the rule |
Well I wasn't really addressing present continuous constuctions, I was addressing the possibility of combining a past tense contruction with with a present. But actually, saying that two concrete verbs cannot exist in the same sentence in different tenses was an overgeneralization. One could in fact say something like "I said my friend works too much." The key is that one of the verbs ("works") is a continuous action. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Just on a grammar note...the examples being used in this thread are not compound sentences...they are complex sentences. The only example of a compound sentence in this thread was edf's final one.(comma optional) |
while functions as a coordinating conjunction in the sentences above; they are therefore compound sentences. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 9:03 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Just on a grammar note...the examples being used in this thread are not compound sentences...they are complex sentences. The only example of a compound sentence in this thread was edf's final one.(comma optional) |
while functions as a coordinating conjunction in the sentences above; they are therefore compound sentences. |
...tell me you are kidding???
Thiuda, I know you to be a scholar in this field, but I am afraid you are making a simple mistake here.
While is not functioning as a coordinating conjunction...and never does.
There are only seven coordinating conjunctions.
FANBOYS...which I am sure you must be aware of.
While�is a subordinating conjunction in the examples you gave.
a) Matt was running while Jim was sleeping.
b) Matt ran while Jim slept.
c) Matt was running while Jim slept.
d) Matt ran while Jim was sleeping.
These are all classic textbook examples of adverb clauses�while functioning as a time subordinator.
They are all complex sentences. (Independent Clause +Dependent Clause)
Matt was running � independent clause �while Jim was sleeping � dependent adverb clause.
Hope this is helpful Thiuda�I know you to be very helpful in these threads. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Thiuda wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Just on a grammar note...the examples being used in this thread are not compound sentences...they are complex sentences. The only example of a compound sentence in this thread was edf's final one.(comma optional) |
while functions as a coordinating conjunction in the sentences above; they are therefore compound sentences. |
...tell me you are kidding??? |
Nope. Check out the Wikipedia entry on Grammatical conjunctions:
Coordinating conjunctions
| From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia wrote: |
| Coordinating conjunctions, also called coordinators, are conjunctions that join two or more items of equal syntactic importance. The mnemonic acronym FANBOYS should not be used to remember the coordinators. It is often stated that the seven words for, and, nor, but, or, yet, and so are the only coordinating conjunctions; however, for, so, and yet are not co-ordinating conjunctions, and various others are used, including whilst and now. |
And, from The Tongue Untied:
| The Tongue Untied wrote: |
Two LESS COMMON coordinating conjunctions
WHILE
While is a coordinating conjunction when its meaning is during the time that or throughout the time that.
The owl paddled, while the monkey slept.(The owl paddled during the time the monkey slept.)
While is a subordinating conjunction when its meaning is although or on the one hand.
While he was not poor, he had no ready cash.(Although he was not poor, he had no ready cash.)
To avoid problems, use while for time and although or whereas to show subordination.
Will you buy a carton of milk while you are at the store? |
Bolds are mine.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| These are all classic textbook examples of adverb clauses�while functioning as a time subordinator. |
In prescriptive grammars, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, depending on who's writing the grammar, for what audience, at what time in history. I think, the key to analyzing the sentences in this thread correctly lies in examining the syntax and figuring out the function of each element in the sentence, i.e. using a generative framework. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Grammar: Combining different tenses |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Thiuda wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Just on a grammar note...the examples being used in this thread are not compound sentences...they are complex sentences. The only example of a compound sentence in this thread was edf's final one.(comma optional) |
while functions as a coordinating conjunction in the sentences above; they are therefore compound sentences. |
...tell me you are kidding??? |
Nope. Check out the Wikipedia entry on Grammatical conjunctions:
Coordinating conjunctions
| From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia wrote: |
| Coordinating conjunctions, also called coordinators, are conjunctions that join two or more items of equal syntactic importance. The mnemonic acronym FANBOYS should not be used to remember the coordinators. It is often stated that the seven words for, and, nor, but, or, yet, and so are the only coordinating conjunctions; however, for, so, and yet are not co-ordinating conjunctions, and various others are used, including whilst and now. |
And, from The Tongue Untied:
| The Tongue Untied wrote: |
Two LESS COMMON coordinating conjunctions
WHILE
While is a coordinating conjunction when its meaning is during the time that or throughout the time that.
The owl paddled, while the monkey slept.(The owl paddled during the time the monkey slept.)
While is a subordinating conjunction when its meaning is although or on the one hand.
While he was not poor, he had no ready cash.(Although he was not poor, he had no ready cash.)
To avoid problems, use while for time and although or whereas to show subordination.
Will you buy a carton of milk while you are at the store? |
Bolds are mine.
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| These are all classic textbook examples of adverb clauses�while functioning as a time subordinator. |
In prescriptive grammars, there is always more than one way to skin a cat, depending on who's writing the grammar, for what audience, at what time in history. I think, the key to analyzing the sentences in this thread correctly lies in examining the syntax and figuring out the function of each element in the sentence, i.e. using a generative framework. |
�ok�I like your take on the subject...you've made your point and you're sticking to it.
Thought you may have made a simple mistake, but that was/is your thoughtful opinion on the matter.
Granted, though the point was a fairly traditional stance on grammatical structure, it still holds a fair amount of sway in today�s grammaring circles.
There does tend to be a fairly large area of overlap between compound and complex sentence configuration, this obviously being one.
However, if you could provide some more sources on using while as a coordinating conjunction, it would be appreciated.
The sources you cite contradict each other on coordinators, which may well have been your point.
But taken together don�t add much credibility to the point you make.
I am not objecting to your stance, it is obviously intentional and well thought out.
However, some rather popular texts and credible researchers still classify while (temporal/ concession/contrast) as a subordinating conjunction�or in more specific modern terms as an adverbial subordinator.
The Teacher�s Grammar of English � Cowan
Practical English Usage � Swan
Grammar for English Language Teachers � Parrott
The Grammar Book � Murcia/ Freeman
The list is rather lengthy, but those should be enough to support my earlier assertions.
Using generative framework, are you also suggesting that (when/as) are also to be included as coordinators when referring to time? Noted - semantic and pragmatic meanings can vary greatly when dealing with inferential temporal information, but this would be an interesting, though doubtful, claim.
There is a great list of adverbial subordinators that would require reclassification if this were so�and any credible sources you have on this would also be appreciated. |
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