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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Yeah man, I agree with a lot of what you said. Question though, what do you think the worlds response should be to a nation that knowingly and willingly hosts terrorists that can and will cause catastrophic damage to western countries. |
OK, so you buy that whole thing about the 19 guys living in the stone age on the other side of the world being able to defeat the greatest military force ever assembled in the history of the planet that even the commissioners of the 9/11 Report don't buy.  I don't, either.
BTW, who created and financed those "terrorists"? |
Are you saying that you don't believe Islamic terrorists are responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Osama Bin Laden, an extremely rich Saudi, as well as others sympathetic to the cause funded them. |
So the $6 billion funneled to him and the mujahedeen by the CIA when we were training him in terrorist tactics while he was an asset of ours during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with it?
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| I'm not really interested in arguing your theories, |
Good. Me neither, because there is no argument here.
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| Did the terrorists have the motive, yes. Did they have the means, yes. The tactical and strategic ability, yes. |
So did a lot of people, including the Project for a New American Century, which outlined the invasion and occupation of central Asia in Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard four years earlier.
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| bacasper wrote: |
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| Clearly doing nothing isn't an option, |
I agree, but what we should do needs to be done in our own country.
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| minding our own G-D business isn't really an option. |
It's not? Didn't your mother or father ever say to you growing up, "Mind your own business"? |
If another boy at school beat me up badly, it would become her and the schools business. Afghanistan harbored terrorists knowingly and openly, that wasn't going to change on it's own. I don't agree with the strategy, and think that it couldn't have been done different. But to say that the situation should have completely been left alone shows no concern for security. |
But if your mother taught that boy how to fight and paid him for it, would you ignore that?
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| I am a bit surprised at your hypocrisy, while I disagree with most of the things you post, I thought at least you were ideologically consistent. I suppose you think all those things you argue for are western values and not human ones. This also makes it clear that your arguments in the Israeli thread are not concerned with the benefit of the Palestinians, who culturally must love it, but with your hatred of Israel itself. |
I have no idea WTF you are talking about here, and what does the latter mischaracterization have to do with the topic? Anybody?
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| bacasper wrote: |
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| Many people clearly don't like being oppressed and there are things that can be done to help them, not war, but to write off oppression because they "might" like it is a poor argument. |
She would not like it either. Trouble is she never felt that way. She was happy. Would you improve her life by going and convincing her that she is really miserable but she just doesn't know it? Otherwise, she may just go to her grave believing she was happy all her life without ever knowing how truly miserable she really was all that time. We couldn't have that situation now, could we? |
Again, that is just one woman. Maybe Americans are happy, and you and your articles telling them other wise. Your double standard is perverse. |
I am American, and I am not happy with the current state of affairs, and neither are many other Americans I know. The ones you are referring to who are happy, what are they happy about? Being able to interfere with and impose themselves upon people in other countries?
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| In Afghanistan we were minding our own business until we were attacked. I disagree completely about Iraq, but that is clearly a different circumstance. If you want to mind your own business when being attacked then go ahead. I say that since we are already in Afghanistan we might as well put the Taliban in a position where they won't come back to power before we leave, and hopefully don't come back. |
You really need to read the 9/11 sticky near the top of the CE forum. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Yeah man, I agree with a lot of what you said. Question though, what do you think the worlds response should be to a nation that knowingly and willingly hosts terrorists that can and will cause catastrophic damage to western countries. |
OK, so you buy that whole thing about the 19 guys living in the stone age on the other side of the world being able to defeat the greatest military force ever assembled in the history of the planet that even the commissioners of the 9/11 Report don't buy. I don't, either.
BTW, who created and financed those "terrorists"? |
Are you saying that you don't believe Islamic terrorists are responsible for the 9/11 attacks? Osama Bin Laden, an extremely rich Saudi, as well as others sympathetic to the cause funded them. |
So the $6 billion funneled to him and the mujahedeen by the CIA when we were training him in terrorist tactics while he was an asset of ours during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with it? |
The mujahedeen and the taliban are not the same. Of course it had something to do with it. It doesn't negate the terrorist attacks. It was in many ways a mistake, but the biggest mistake would be the way America let Pakistan be so involved with the process. We made a mistake, so what, now we shouldn't defend ourselves?
| bacasper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not really interested in arguing your theories, |
Good. Me neither, because there is no argument here.
| Quote: |
| Did the terrorists have the motive, yes. Did they have the means, yes. The tactical and strategic ability, yes. |
So did a lot of people, including the Project for a New American Century, which outlined the invasion and occupation of central Asia in Zbigniew Brzezinski's The Grand Chessboard four years earlier. |
going to leave this alone to avoid going off on that tangent.
| bacasper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Clearly doing nothing isn't an option, |
I agree, but what we should do needs to be done in our own country.
| Quote: |
| minding our own G-D business isn't really an option. |
It's not? Didn't your mother or father ever say to you growing up, "Mind your own business"? |
If another boy at school beat me up badly, it would become her and the schools business. Afghanistan harbored terrorists knowingly and openly, that wasn't going to change on it's own. I don't agree with the strategy, and think that it couldn't have been done different. But to say that the situation should have completely been left alone shows no concern for security.[/quote]
But if your mother taught that boy how to fight and paid him for it, would you ignore that? [/quote]
No, I would hopefully learn from that and not do it again, which I'm not sure if that would work in the United States case. But that doesn't negate the violent action and the threat of it happening again. If someone attacks you, and is probably going to do it again than ignoring it is not a good option.
| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I am a bit surprised at your hypocrisy, while I disagree with most of the things you post, I thought at least you were ideologically consistent. I suppose you think all those things you argue for are western values and not human ones. This also makes it clear that your arguments in the Israeli thread are not concerned with the benefit of the Palestinians, who culturally must love it, but with your hatred of Israel itself. |
I have no idea WTF you are talking about here, and what does the latter mischaracterization have to do with the topic? Anybody? |
It's easy, your story about the Saudi woman where you argue that many people don't mind repressive circumstances. You argue that we should mind our own business, but then you post tons of articles about Israel and Palestine. Why is Palestine different? You clearly advocate, or at least many articles you post, foreign intervention in that matter. Whats different? The state of Israel. Please explain the contradiction.
| Quote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Many people clearly don't like being oppressed and there are things that can be done to help them, not war, but to write off oppression because they "might" like it is a poor argument. |
She would not like it either. Trouble is she never felt that way. She was happy. Would you improve her life by going and convincing her that she is really miserable but she just doesn't know it? Otherwise, she may just go to her grave believing she was happy all her life without ever knowing how truly miserable she really was all that time. We couldn't have that situation now, could we? |
Again, that is just one woman. Maybe Americans are happy, and you and your articles telling them other wise. Your double standard is perverse. |
I am American, and I am not happy with the current state of affairs, and neither are many other Americans I know. The ones you are referring to who are happy, what are they happy about? Being able to interfere with and impose themselves upon people in other countries? [/quote]
Didn't your mother tell you to mind your own business? I took what you said about Saudi's and applied it to America. Many Americans are happy with the way things are, in fact I was talking to this one woman who told me that she didn't mind much the foreign policy or kiddie porn laws...
See how unconvincing that sounds.
| bacasper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In Afghanistan we were minding our own business until we were attacked. I disagree completely about Iraq, but that is clearly a different circumstance. If you want to mind your own business when being attacked then go ahead. I say that since we are already in Afghanistan we might as well put the Taliban in a position where they won't come back to power before we leave, and hopefully don't come back. |
You really need to read the 9/11 sticky near the top of the CE forum. |
I glanced through it, I'm not going to talk about what I thought to avoid going into that conversation, needless to say I think that the simplest explanation is also the correct one. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I am a bit surprised at your hypocrisy, while I disagree with most of the things you post, I thought at least you were ideologically consistent. I suppose you think all those things you argue for are western values and not human ones. This also makes it clear that your arguments in the Israeli thread are not concerned with the benefit of the Palestinians, who culturally must love it, but with your hatred of Israel itself. |
I have no idea WTF you are talking about here, and what does the latter mischaracterization have to do with the topic? Anybody? |
It's easy, your story about the Saudi woman where you argue that many people don't mind repressive circumstances. You argue that we should mind our own business, but then you post tons of articles about Israel and Palestine. Why is Palestine different? You clearly advocate, or at least many articles you post, foreign intervention in that matter. Whats different? The state of Israel. Please explain the contradiction. |
OK, so you are completely misrepresenting or misunderstanding me there. I don't post about Israstine because of the repression, although I certainly do not support what is happening to the Palestinians. (For the record and before you start making other wild accusations, I also do not support what Nazis did to Jews, nor how Zionists sold out Jews to Nazis.) For all I care let them kill each other. Unfortunately, it has been made my business against my will because my government supplies Israel with $10 million a day, weekends & holidays included, 365 days/year. As long as it is my money, it IS my business, and I get a say.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Many people clearly don't like being oppressed and there are things that can be done to help them, not war, but to write off oppression because they "might" like it is a poor argument. |
She would not like it either. Trouble is she never felt that way. She was happy. Would you improve her life by going and convincing her that she is really miserable but she just doesn't know it? Otherwise, she may just go to her grave believing she was happy all her life without ever knowing how truly miserable she really was all that time. We couldn't have that situation now, could we? |
Again, that is just one woman. Maybe Americans are happy, and you and your articles telling them other wise. Your double standard is perverse. |
I am American, and I am not happy with the current state of affairs, and neither are many other Americans I know. The ones you are referring to who are happy, what are they happy about? Being able to interfere with and impose themselves upon people in other countries? |
Didn't your mother tell you to mind your own business? I took what you said about Saudi's and applied it to America. Many Americans are happy with the way things are, in fact I was talking to this one woman who told me that she didn't mind much the foreign policy or kiddie porn laws...
See how unconvincing that sounds. |
I have no problem whatsoever arguing with my fellow citizens about our own country's policies.
| Quote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| You really need to read the 9/11 sticky near the top of the CE forum. |
I glanced through it, I'm not going to talk about what I thought to avoid going into that conversation, needless to say I think that the simplest explanation is also the correct one. |
Oh, good. Then, since PNAC had the motive, means, and tactical and strategic ability, you agree they were behind it, OR your mind is already made up and you'd rather not be confused with other relevant facts. Anyway, do avoid that conversation here. Pursue it on the appropriate thread if you like. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
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| Leave now and have all their deaths be for nothing? |
Yes. Honor is fake. Life is real. |
Leon, you are suffering from a classic sunk cost fallacy. It makes total sense to throw good money (or in this case money, equipment, lives etc.), after bad, right? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Leave now and have all their deaths be for nothing? |
Yes. Honor is fake. Life is real. |
Leon, you are suffering from a classic sunk cost fallacy. It makes total sense to throw good money (or in this case money, equipment, lives etc.), after bad, right? |
No, I'd say that many of the original decisions were bad, but that since we are going to be in Afghanistan for a while longer regardless of what happens, as another poster pointed out due to the massive logistical operation it is to withdraw, might as well cripple the Taliban before we leave. That way there is less of a chance of them retaking the country. It's a simple premise. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:54 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| I am a bit surprised at your hypocrisy, while I disagree with most of the things you post, I thought at least you were ideologically consistent. I suppose you think all those things you argue for are western values and not human ones. This also makes it clear that your arguments in the Israeli thread are not concerned with the benefit of the Palestinians, who culturally must love it, but with your hatred of Israel itself. |
I have no idea WTF you are talking about here, and what does the latter mischaracterization have to do with the topic? Anybody? |
It's easy, your story about the Saudi woman where you argue that many people don't mind repressive circumstances. You argue that we should mind our own business, but then you post tons of articles about Israel and Palestine. Why is Palestine different? You clearly advocate, or at least many articles you post, foreign intervention in that matter. Whats different? The state of Israel. Please explain the contradiction. |
OK, so you are completely misrepresenting or misunderstanding me there. I don't post about Israstine because of the repression, although I certainly do not support what is happening to the Palestinians. (For the record and before you start making other wild accusations, I also do not support what Nazis did to Jews, nor how Zionists sold out Jews to Nazis.) For all I care let them kill each other. Unfortunately, it has been made my business against my will because my government supplies Israel with $10 million a day, weekends & holidays included, 365 days/year. As long as it is my money, it IS my business, and I get a say. |
I misunderstood you. You are, from what you say, a cultural isolationist. I suppose as long as your monies not involved let the world get on with its genocides and aids and what not. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Keep trying, Leon. Maybe one of these times you'll get it right.
I don't want MY MONEY to pay for wars, genocides, AIDS, etc.
I'd rather the world got on without them even without my money, but with it is absolutely unacceptable. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Keep trying, Leon. Maybe one of these times you'll get it right.
I don't want MY MONEY to pay for wars, genocides, AIDS, etc.
I'd rather the world got on without them even without my money, but with it is absolutely unacceptable. |
Yeah man, I get what you're saying. It's nice you'd rather the world got on without them, pity you find it acceptable. I find those things unacceptable on their own terms.
Anyways, back on topic, I sincerely hope that the 2011 deadline to remove troops is met. |
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Koveras
Joined: 09 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Keep trying, Leon. Maybe one of these times you'll get it right.
I don't want MY MONEY to pay for wars, genocides, AIDS, etc.
I'd rather the world got on without them even without my money, but with it is absolutely unacceptable. |
Yeah man, I get what you're saying. It's nice you'd rather the world got on without them, pity you find it acceptable. I find those things unacceptable on their own terms. |
The gallery isn't impressed by strawmen nor one-upmanship. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Koveras wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Keep trying, Leon. Maybe one of these times you'll get it right.
I don't want MY MONEY to pay for wars, genocides, AIDS, etc.
I'd rather the world got on without them even without my money, but with it is absolutely unacceptable. |
Yeah man, I get what you're saying. It's nice you'd rather the world got on without them, pity you find it acceptable. I find those things unacceptable on their own terms. |
The gallery isn't impressed by strawmen nor one-upmanship. |
Strawmen? Not really trying to one up Bacasper, that would be a pointless exercise. |
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Senior
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Leave now and have all their deaths be for nothing? |
Yes. Honor is fake. Life is real. |
Leon, you are suffering from a classic sunk cost fallacy. It makes total sense to throw good money (or in this case money, equipment, lives etc.), after bad, right? |
No, I'd say that many of the original decisions were bad, but that since we are going to be in Afghanistan for a while longer regardless of what happens, as another poster pointed out due to the massive logistical operation it is to withdraw, might as well cripple the Taliban before we leave. That way there is less of a chance of them retaking the country. It's a simple premise. |
Don't worry. It's a simple logical fallacy. Unfortunately, politicians and normal people fall into the trap all the time. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Senior wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Senior wrote: |
| mises wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Leave now and have all their deaths be for nothing? |
Yes. Honor is fake. Life is real. |
Leon, you are suffering from a classic sunk cost fallacy. It makes total sense to throw good money (or in this case money, equipment, lives etc.), after bad, right? |
No, I'd say that many of the original decisions were bad, but that since we are going to be in Afghanistan for a while longer regardless of what happens, as another poster pointed out due to the massive logistical operation it is to withdraw, might as well cripple the Taliban before we leave. That way there is less of a chance of them retaking the country. It's a simple premise. |
Don't worry. It's a simple logical fallacy. Unfortunately, politicians and normal people fall into the trap all the time. |
I'll admit that I didn't know what a sunk coast fallacy was until I just looked it up right now. I believe that is a mis-characterization of what I meant. I suppose I'll try and outline what I think in economic terms since that seems to be what people here are most comfortable with. It is most cost efficient to deal with the Taliban now while we are in the country. We can not realistically withdraw in less than half a year or so anyways. The more damage we do to the Taliban the less likely they are to retake Afghanistan. That means that it is less likely that Afghanistan will revert to a terrorist haven. We already know that if Afghanistan harbors terrorists, and the terrorists attack the United States, than there is a high probability of US military action in Afghanistan. When viewed through this lens staying in Afghanistan slightly longer is more cost effective. |
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Reggie
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: |
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Maybe the money we're spending in Afghanistan would be better utilized if we would instead pay attention to the opinions of all of these professional military and commercial pilots to find out why they believe the alleged highjackers could not have committed the crime they have been accused of doing. Until we arrive at a full understanding of how 9/11 happened and who did it, the war in Afghanistan is a sham and unworthy of more dead US soldiers, more dead Afghan civilians, and more wasted dollars we have to borrow from the Chinese.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Reggie wrote: |
Maybe the money we're spending in Afghanistan would be better utilized if we would instead pay attention to the opinions of all of these professional military and commercial pilots to find out why they believe the alleged highjackers could not have committed the crime they have been accused of doing. Until we arrive at a full understanding of how 9/11 happened and who did it, the war in Afghanistan is a sham and unworthy of more dead US soldiers, more dead Afghan civilians, and more wasted dollars we have to borrow from the Chinese.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html |
I do not believe that 9/11 was an inside job. I do believe that Israel knew it was coming, right down to the hour. When those Israeli agents in NYC who were arrested were interviewed back in Israel about what they were doing one of them said "we were there to document the event". That's perfectly clear. Israel knew 9/11 was coming. Netanyahu was elated that it happened. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
| Reggie wrote: |
Maybe the money we're spending in Afghanistan would be better utilized if we would instead pay attention to the opinions of all of these professional military and commercial pilots to find out why they believe the alleged highjackers could not have committed the crime they have been accused of doing. Until we arrive at a full understanding of how 9/11 happened and who did it, the war in Afghanistan is a sham and unworthy of more dead US soldiers, more dead Afghan civilians, and more wasted dollars we have to borrow from the Chinese.
http://patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html |
I do not believe that 9/11 was an inside job. I do believe that Israel knew it was coming, right down to the hour. When those Israeli agents in NYC who were arrested were interviewed back in Israel about what they were doing one of them said "we were there to document the event". That's perfectly clear. Israel knew 9/11 was coming. Netanyahu was elated that it happened. |
Reggie, I agree that would be a much better use of our money.
mises, how much more proof do you need? You admit the Israelis had foreknowledge; don't you think they warned us, just like several other intelligence services did? Do you at least believe we also had foreknowledge?
Anyway, I missed something: how did the cavedwellers get their hands on the military-grade nanothermite found in the WTC rubble? |
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