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JustTurtle
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: Pensions and private school closings |
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How much will private schools match when it comes to a pension? Also, if a school closes before your contract is up will you still receive your pension? If that does happen then how long will you have before you must leave the country?
thanks, first post |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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As long as the school paid into your pension, then you'll still get it, even after the school closes.
If they didn't pay into it, then I'm not sure whether anyone will force the former owner to pay into it later. |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| JustTurtle wrote: |
How much will private schools match when it comes to a pension? Also, if a school closes before your contract is up will you still receive your pension? If that does happen then how long will you have before you must leave the country?
thanks, first post |
Private school or language institute (hagwan)?
Private schools will contribute the same as a public school to your NPS account.
Most hagwans DO NOT enroll you in the NPS for any number of nefarious reasons. Those (in the majority) that don't will also NOT enroll you in the NHIC (national medical plan). |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| JustTurtle wrote: |
How much will private schools match when it comes to a pension? Also, if a school closes before your contract is up will you still receive your pension? If that does happen then how long will you have before you must leave the country?
thanks, first post |
Private school or language institute (hagwan)?
Private schools will contribute the same as a public school to your NPS account.
Most hagwans DO NOT enroll you in the NPS for any number of nefarious reasons. Those (in the majority) that don't will also NOT enroll you in the NHIC (national medical plan). |
BS ^
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
Also, in some cases, you may contract legally to be an Independent Contractor and there is no obligation for you to be signed up for pension and health insurance by the school. This is beneficial for some workers, especially those from countries that do not get their pension payments refunded. For most E2 teachers it is best to avoid signing up as an Independent Contractor. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary. |
How do you figure that? I've met plenty of people who didn't get enrolled in either until they made of point of reminding their bosses (usually a few months down the road) that they need to be enrolled in both. Of course, those from countries that don't get the pension back are usually happy to be continue not paying it.
| ontheway wrote: |
Also, in some cases, you may contract legally to be an Independent Contractor and there is no obligation for you to be signed up for pension and health insurance by the school. This is beneficial for some workers, especially those from countries that do not get their pension payments refunded. For most E2 teachers it is best to avoid signing up as an Independent Contractor. |
I might be wrong, but I think that as far as the pension office is concerned, there is a maximum number of hours that you can be employed as an independent contractor. Beyond that you still have to be enrolled in the pension system. I think though that you have to actually go in and declare that you are an independent contractor. Unless you are getting something in return from the boss or you're from a country that can't get the pension paid back when you leave, I see no reason to make such a false declaration. |
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SunDevil Dre
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:58 am Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| JustTurtle wrote: |
How much will private schools match when it comes to a pension? Also, if a school closes before your contract is up will you still receive your pension? If that does happen then how long will you have before you must leave the country?
thanks, first post |
Private school or language institute (hagwan)?
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What's the difference? I thought private school = hagwan?
[/newbie] |
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JustTurtle
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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yes I thought private = hogwan
I will be applying for jobs this winter so to avoid mistakes I'm trying to learn as much as possible beforehand. I'm really concerned that if I go to work for a hogwan (and it closes) I will be out the money owed to me and will have little options for working or staying in SK. So thanks for all the information, it is very useful. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| Most hagwans DO NOT enroll you in the NPS for any number of nefarious reasons. Those (in the majority) that don't will also NOT enroll you in the NHIC (national medical plan). |
BS ^
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary. |
One or two percent? I don't think so, man. There is massive widescale fraud going on in this industry. I know many E-2s whose schools didn't pay into NHIC, even when it was in their contract. (None of those people wrote about their experience on this website, at least to my knowledge).
http://efl-law.com/medical-insurance.php
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Your employer is also required to register you in the Korean medical scheme, and in turn you should receive a small card (booklet) showing your membership and financial status.
In our experience over 70% of individual schools do not correctly register their teachers into any medical scheme and instead may just deduct an employee contribution and hope that you will not know how the medical payments work! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ontheway wrote: |
[
BS ^
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
. |
Of the literally THOUSANDS of hakwon jobs posted in the contract sticky thread and on jobs boards elsewhere...VERY FEW offer pension. A few more offer health insurance but usually those are private insurance plans and NOT NHI. I've personally reviewed well over 100 pages of contracts in the sticky thread and I can guarantee less than 1 in 20 offer pension. I've seen plenty of other job offers on other job boards...the same applies to them.
Why is it that you are the only one claiming this when the majority of people here experience the exact opposite? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
BS ^
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
. |
Of the literally THOUSANDS of hakwon jobs posted in the contract sticky thread and on jobs boards elsewhere...VERY FEW offer pension. A few more offer health insurance but usually those are private insurance plans and NOT NHI. I've personally reviewed well over 100 pages of contracts in the sticky thread and I can guarantee less than 1 in 20 offer pension. I've seen plenty of other job offers on other job boards...the same applies to them.
Why is it that you are the only one claiming this when the majority of people here experience the exact opposite? |
Here's one reason: Pension is there, but you missed it. And I only checked 1 contract you reviewed. Does this mean you miss 100%. NO. But it means that your view of the numbers is not reliable.
From the contract thread:
| Quote: |
3.0 Compensation and Other Treatment of Employee
3.1 Salary: The monthly salary will be 2,200,000 Won with 2 payments made within one day after the last teaching session�one as the final monthly salary payment and one as severance pay. No part of the thirteenth payment will be paid unless the employee completes the full (12 session) one-year contract. Overtime payment is made at the rate of 20,000 Won per 40-min class. Teaching salary will commence from the first day of teaching.
When an employee is absent from scheduled teaching duties salary will be deducted accordingly.
Korean income taxes and Korean National Pension Scheme deductions will be withheld.
Salary payments will be made on or before the eighth day of the month following the teaching session during which the employment services were provided.
should read "Excepting sick days." at the end of the phrase in bold above.
3.1a National Pension Tax Refund: Currently exclusive to employees holding passports from the USA and Canada. Under current Korean tax regulations/tax treaty with the respective countries full time contract employees holding passports from the United States and Canada shall receive the accumulated pension tax payment made each month over the course of employment at ECC Ansan plus the equivalent co-payment made by employer directly from the Korean National Pension Tax Office (http://www.npc.or.kr/ Click English link). Employees who hold passports from the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and South Africa may inquire with their home countries tax office on the current tax treaty bylaws with Korea and means of receiving reimbursement or credit for paying into the Korean pension tax fund.
1.
Orientation and Training: Shortly after arrival in Korea, employee will be required to undertake orientation and training before commencing teaching. The period of training and orientation will usually be two to four days. Employee will receive payment of 30,000 Won per each day of training and orientation. Orientation hours less than (6) hrs per day will be prorated.
No, no, no. You are at work so you get paid the full rate. None of this 30,000 per day business. That's about 3 dollars an hour. You'd make more working for Burger King.
2.
Transportation: Employer will provide for employee an economy class ticket for passage to Korea from an international airport mutually agreed to by employer and employee (henceforth referred to as point of departure). The cost of the arrival tickets shall be listed as part of the first month income and taxed accordingly.
No...this is another sneaky trick. Airfare should be over and above your salary. That is what decent hakwons do. Don't fall for this.
On completion of the full 12-session contract period, employer will provide for the employee an economy class ticket for passage from Korea to point of departure. The return air ticket will be provided at the time of termination of employment. In the event that the employee continues employment under a subsequent employment agreement with employer, the return air ticket will be provided at the time of completion of the subsequent contract period(s). Air tickets provided cannot be exchanged for cash equivalents or transferred to persons other than the employee. Employer does not agree to, and is not liable for, compensation to employee, whether in cash or otherwise, for air tickets not used by employees.
3.
Paid Sick Classes: Employees under the 12-session contract will be entitled to 10 paid sick classes with a medical note from a physician or confirmation/approval by the employer. Classes missed for non-medical reasons or unverifiable medical condition will result in prorated deduction from employee�s monthly salary. Employee(s) contracted for less than 12 sessions but at least 6 sessions will receive prorated terms.
3.4a Attendance Bonus: Under the 12-session contract, the employer will pay the employee an attendance bonus for the following levels of attendance
300,000 Won bonus for missing no classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
200,000 Won bonus for missing 5 or less classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
100,000 Won bonus for missing 10 or less classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
Employee(s) contracted for less than 12 sessions but at least 6 sessions will receive prorated terms.
3.5 Holidays and Vacation: Employee will be entitled to observe regular annually scheduled public holidays and receive vacation days during the contract term according to a yearly schedule provided by employer before the commencement of the year to which the schedule refers. There are ten (10) vacation days in each calendar year (January - December).
Be aware that some of this days fall on Saturdays and Sundays and you do not get a day in lieu in Korea.
3.6 Medical Insurance: Employee will be covered by medical benefits under the Korean Medical Insurance Union (http://www.nhic.or.kr/ Click English link) a Government Health Organization. The cost of this coverage will be borne half by employer and half by employee. Employee�s share of this coverage will be deducted from employee's salary, monthly.
Where's pension? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know where you get your statistics from but I can state for a fact that from the period between Jan 2002 and Dec 2009 (when I was working for one of the foreigner help centers) that MY case list included just over 10,000 inquiries and complaints from hakwon workers who were NOT enrolled in the NHIC or NPS programs.
Considering the numbers of E2 visas (immigration numbers) that were granted during that period the numbers would seem to me to be substantially more than 1-2% and in MY estimation (based on MY files from 2008-2009) that the number of teachers who are still not properly enrolled is still significantly over 50% (based on complaints vs visas granted - visas granted for PS positions) and would probably approach (my personal estimate) 80%.
1st hand, personal experience with numbers that would certainly be statistically valid with uncertainly of less than 3% and a confidence level of 95% (or better).
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Pensions and private school closings |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
BS ^
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
. |
Of the literally THOUSANDS of hakwon jobs posted in the contract sticky thread and on jobs boards elsewhere...VERY FEW offer pension. A few more offer health insurance but usually those are private insurance plans and NOT NHI. I've personally reviewed well over 100 pages of contracts in the sticky thread and I can guarantee less than 1 in 20 offer pension. I've seen plenty of other job offers on other job boards...the same applies to them.
Why is it that you are the only one claiming this when the majority of people here experience the exact opposite? |
Here's one reason: Pension is there, but you missed it. And I only checked 1 contract you reviewed. Does this mean you miss 100%. NO. But it means that your view of the numbers is not reliable.
From the contract thread:
| Quote: |
3.0 Compensation and Other Treatment of Employee
3.1 Salary: The monthly salary will be 2,200,000 Won with 2 payments made within one day after the last teaching session�one as the final monthly salary payment and one as severance pay. No part of the thirteenth payment will be paid unless the employee completes the full (12 session) one-year contract. Overtime payment is made at the rate of 20,000 Won per 40-min class. Teaching salary will commence from the first day of teaching.
When an employee is absent from scheduled teaching duties salary will be deducted accordingly.
Korean income taxes and Korean National Pension Scheme deductions will be withheld.
Salary payments will be made on or before the eighth day of the month following the teaching session during which the employment services were provided.
should read "Excepting sick days." at the end of the phrase in bold above.
3.1a National Pension Tax Refund: Currently exclusive to employees holding passports from the USA and Canada. Under current Korean tax regulations/tax treaty with the respective countries full time contract employees holding passports from the United States and Canada shall receive the accumulated pension tax payment made each month over the course of employment at ECC Ansan plus the equivalent co-payment made by employer directly from the Korean National Pension Tax Office (http://www.npc.or.kr/ Click English link). Employees who hold passports from the UK, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland and South Africa may inquire with their home countries tax office on the current tax treaty bylaws with Korea and means of receiving reimbursement or credit for paying into the Korean pension tax fund.
1.
Orientation and Training: Shortly after arrival in Korea, employee will be required to undertake orientation and training before commencing teaching. The period of training and orientation will usually be two to four days. Employee will receive payment of 30,000 Won per each day of training and orientation. Orientation hours less than (6) hrs per day will be prorated.
No, no, no. You are at work so you get paid the full rate. None of this 30,000 per day business. That's about 3 dollars an hour. You'd make more working for Burger King.
2.
Transportation: Employer will provide for employee an economy class ticket for passage to Korea from an international airport mutually agreed to by employer and employee (henceforth referred to as point of departure). The cost of the arrival tickets shall be listed as part of the first month income and taxed accordingly.
No...this is another sneaky trick. Airfare should be over and above your salary. That is what decent hakwons do. Don't fall for this.
On completion of the full 12-session contract period, employer will provide for the employee an economy class ticket for passage from Korea to point of departure. The return air ticket will be provided at the time of termination of employment. In the event that the employee continues employment under a subsequent employment agreement with employer, the return air ticket will be provided at the time of completion of the subsequent contract period(s). Air tickets provided cannot be exchanged for cash equivalents or transferred to persons other than the employee. Employer does not agree to, and is not liable for, compensation to employee, whether in cash or otherwise, for air tickets not used by employees.
3.
Paid Sick Classes: Employees under the 12-session contract will be entitled to 10 paid sick classes with a medical note from a physician or confirmation/approval by the employer. Classes missed for non-medical reasons or unverifiable medical condition will result in prorated deduction from employee�s monthly salary. Employee(s) contracted for less than 12 sessions but at least 6 sessions will receive prorated terms.
3.4a Attendance Bonus: Under the 12-session contract, the employer will pay the employee an attendance bonus for the following levels of attendance
300,000 Won bonus for missing no classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
200,000 Won bonus for missing 5 or less classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
100,000 Won bonus for missing 10 or less classes (Medical or non-medical reasons)
Employee(s) contracted for less than 12 sessions but at least 6 sessions will receive prorated terms.
3.5 Holidays and Vacation: Employee will be entitled to observe regular annually scheduled public holidays and receive vacation days during the contract term according to a yearly schedule provided by employer before the commencement of the year to which the schedule refers. There are ten (10) vacation days in each calendar year (January - December).
Be aware that some of this days fall on Saturdays and Sundays and you do not get a day in lieu in Korea.
3.6 Medical Insurance: Employee will be covered by medical benefits under the Korean Medical Insurance Union (http://www.nhic.or.kr/ Click English link) a Government Health Organization. The cost of this coverage will be borne half by employer and half by employee. Employee�s share of this coverage will be deducted from employee's salary, monthly.
Where's pension? |
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So because I missed ONE out of the thousands that's not reliable? It's called a insignificant statistical error (.001% or something close) which is well within acceptable margin of error rates. I make no claim to 100% perfection nor have I ever (excepting in jest).
Now if you could find 4-5 such errors (which would still be a tiny percentage of 1%) I would concede the point. As for that particular one I was rushed. I was asked by a Korean co-teacher to cover a class ten minutes prior to the opening of said class in the middle of writing that review. (She had a business trip).
Plus if you noticed I didn't say it didn't have pension I asked where it was. I am perfectly willing to count it as one of the "VERY FEW" that does have pension which I mentioned above. That still leaves thousands that don't have it.
Mr. ttompatz also pointed out that his file included thousands of cases as well. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
I don't know where you get your statistics from but I can state for a fact that from the period between Jan 2002 and Dec 2009 (when I was working for one of the foreigner help centers) that MY case list included just over 10,000 inquiries and complaints from hakwon workers who were NOT enrolled in the NHIC or NPS programs.
Considering the numbers of E2 visas (immigration numbers) that were granted during that period the numbers would seem to me to be substantially more than 1-2% and in MY estimation (based on MY files from 2008-2009) that the number of teachers who are still not properly enrolled is still significantly over 50% (based on complaints vs visas granted - visas granted for PS positions) and would probably approach (my personal estimate) 80%.
1st hand, personal experience with numbers that would certainly be statistically valid with uncertainly of less than 3% and a confidence level of 95% (or better).
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5/day x 5days/week x 50weeks/yr x 8 years = 10,000+ ... means this is a fabricated account.
If this was only complaints about health ins and pension, which would be a small percentage of all complaints, for only one worker at only "one of the foreigner help centers" ... then the total number of complaints would have to be in the hundreds of thousands. So, the number of complaints would exceed the number of teachers.
Your numbers are a total fabrication.
The number of complaints on Dave's being so small then, only a few per week means that you should be posting the names and phone numbers of all these help centers on Dave's when people need help.
It seems that every teacher in Korea has been to the help centers except the few who post here. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
I don't know where you get your statistics from but I can state for a fact that from the period between Jan 2002 and Dec 2009 (when I was working for one of the foreigner help centers) that MY case list included just over 10,000 inquiries and complaints from hakwon workers who were NOT enrolled in the NHIC or NPS programs.
Considering the numbers of E2 visas (immigration numbers) that were granted during that period the numbers would seem to me to be substantially more than 1-2% and in MY estimation (based on MY files from 2008-2009) that the number of teachers who are still not properly enrolled is still significantly over 50% (based on complaints vs visas granted - visas granted for PS positions) and would probably approach (my personal estimate) 80%.
1st hand, personal experience with numbers that would certainly be statistically valid with uncertainly of less than 3% and a confidence level of 95% (or better).
. |
5/day x 5days/week x 50weeks/yr x 8 years = 10,000+ ... means this is a fabricated account.
If this was only complaints about health ins and pension, which would be a small percentage of all complaints, for only one worker at only "one of the foreigner help centers" ... then the total number of complaints would have to be in the hundreds of thousands. So, the number of complaints would exceed the number of teachers.
Your numbers are a total fabrication.
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How do you come to the conclusion that his numbers are a fabrication?
| ontheway wrote: |
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
|
While you're at it, please do tell us all how you arrived at your 1% - 2% figure. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
I don't know where you get your statistics from but I can state for a fact that from the period between Jan 2002 and Dec 2009 (when I was working for one of the foreigner help centers) that MY case list included just over 10,000 inquiries and complaints from hakwon workers who were NOT enrolled in the NHIC or NPS programs.
Considering the numbers of E2 visas (immigration numbers) that were granted during that period the numbers would seem to me to be substantially more than 1-2% and in MY estimation (based on MY files from 2008-2009) that the number of teachers who are still not properly enrolled is still significantly over 50% (based on complaints vs visas granted - visas granted for PS positions) and would probably approach (my personal estimate) 80%.
1st hand, personal experience with numbers that would certainly be statistically valid with uncertainly of less than 3% and a confidence level of 95% (or better).
. |
5/day x 5days/week x 50weeks/yr x 8 years = 10,000+ ... means this is a fabricated account.
If this was only complaints about health ins and pension, which would be a small percentage of all complaints, for only one worker at only "one of the foreigner help centers" ... then the total number of complaints would have to be in the hundreds of thousands. So, the number of complaints would exceed the number of teachers.
Your numbers are a total fabrication.
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How do you come to the conclusion that his numbers are a fabrication?
| ontheway wrote: |
Nearly ALL hogwans these days will enroll their employees in both the National Pension Program and the National Health Insurance. However, there is still a small percentage that do not (perhaps 1 or 2% as evidenced by the few such posts on this board), so be wary.
|
While you're at it, please do tell us all how you arrived at your 1% - 2% figure. |
5/day x 5days/week x 50weeks/yr x 8 years = 10,000 is the obvious method he used to create his bogus number.
There are very few threads that have employees of hogwans, not independent contractors or others that are exempt, but employees who are not covered by pension and health insurance. If you extrapolate those over the number of Dave's posters, and then take that as a porportional sample you will find the percentage is very low, then you have to adjust for the fact that people rarely come on Dave's and start a thread complaining that they have pension deductions and don't want them. There have been some of those as well, however, from posters who are from countries that get no refund.
It boils down to only 1 or 2% that will not provide pension or health insurance to their employees. There are many who drag their feet in signing up, there is a larger number that cheats on the amounts by underreporting salaries, overcharging teachers and skimming, and other such devices. There is a very large number that cheats or fiddles around on the income tax rates. (A different topic, but many Korean public accountants who do filing for hogwan owners and other businesses tell the hogwans they must withhold 3.5% or even 5% just because they don't know any better.) But actually flat out refusing to ever enroll actual employees - no that number is quite low. |
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