|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
I hold Israel to higher standards for several reasons.
1. Biggest recipient of American Aid. Despite this they openly snub the United States without fear of repercussion. I want something for my countries money, not disrespect and false promises. Unveiling plans for new settlements when our vice president is there for a visit, I mean come on.
2. They present a unique security threat. It is no secret that Israel is one of the most jingoistic countries in the world, or that they are in one of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the world. They openly attack and threaten their neighbors. They provide an easy rallying cry for recruiters for terrorist organizations. They often act unilaterally and pre-emptively. If they make a mistake, liking bombing Iran, it will have consequences for every one.
3. Human rights and war crimes. Not saying that Hamas and Hezbollah do a great job of this either, but I hold them to different standards because they are openly militant groups whereas Israel is supposed to be a liberal democracy. |
1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...the amount of money/aid that is pumped into Iraq and Afghanistan* exceeds theirs.
Iraq alone exceeds Israel's aid by a factor of about eight. |
You know that is a completely different circumstance. Anyways if you look at all the money given over time my point still stands.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 2. Israel is surrounded by jingoist neighbors. It has to be and act jingoist in order not to be seen as weak and open to attack. Its neighbors attacked it at its founding and afterwards. |
I know all this. The reasons at this point don't matter to me as much as the potential consequences. Israels actions have wide repercussions that have the potential to affect the stability of the entire world. If Iran gets closer to nuclear ability the chances of an Israeli air strike is high. Why does Iran want Nukes? Why does Hamas and Hezbollah exist? Again I understand why they act the way they do, but because of their position I hold them to a high standard.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 3. Holding other groups to different standards is disingenuous in this case. Hamas is supposed to be a democratically elected group...isn't that one of the reasons why people are bashing Israel for invading Gaza and not recognizing a government which was democratically elected? Can't have your cake and eat it too I'm afraid. |
Hamas wasn't the one who broke the peace agreement, it was other militant groups, some of which Hamas actively tried to prevent.
"The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) recorded a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.[92] ITIC noted that while "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until November 4 (when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded"), other Palestinian factions violated the lull by rocket and mortar shell fire, in some instance in defiance of Hamas.[93] The Israeli military also found several dozen improvised explosive devices used against its vehicles on the Gaza border and about a dozen cases of sniper fire from Gaza directed at its forces."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War
Can't make a point and have incorrect information too. Nice try. Anyways I hold Democratic nations to higher standards, heres a reason why. If Israeli citizens wanted to they could change the political climate with a vote. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...not even close. Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
Hmm, according to this, it looks like Iraq and Afghanistan technically receive more money than Israel, but I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that we invaded those nations and continue to maintain a military presence on them. Other than those two, it looks like Israel is at the top. As such, whether Leon's point is considered accurate or not would be determined by whether or not you considered our spending on Iraq and Afghanistan to be normal foreign aid or not.
Another point I feel worth mentioning is that Egypt also receives a huge amount of American aid; not as much as Israel, but still a huge amount. None the less, that doesn't seem to drive Israel's opponents into a similar fury about Egypt. I strongly feel that, generally speaking, the "foreign aid argument" is a justification rather than a reason for opposition to Israel. |
My understanding of the aid to Egypt is that it is mostly developmental and humanitarian aid while aid to Israel is military. I, for the most part, I'm not in favor of giving military aid to other countries in peace time. I am for giving developmental aid if it is properly administered. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| banMyth"]3. Holding other groups to different standards is disingenuous in this case. Hamas is supposed to be a democratically elected group...isn't that one of the reasons why people are bashing Israel for invading Gaza and not recognizing a government which was democratically elected? Can't have your cake and eat it too I'm afraid. |
Hamas wasn't the one who broke the peace agreement, it was other militant groups, some of which Hamas actively tried to prevent.
"The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) recorded a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.[92] ITIC noted that while "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until November 4 (when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded"), other Palestinian factions violated the lull by rocket and mortar shell fire, in some instance in defiance of Hamas.[93] The Israeli military also found several dozen improvised explosive devices used against its vehicles on the Gaza border and about a dozen cases of sniper fire from Gaza directed at its forces."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War
Can't make a point and have incorrect information too. Nice try. . |
What are you on about? Where in my post above did I say anything about Hamas being the one to break the ceasefire?
What was that you were saying about not making a point? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...not even close. Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
Hmm, according to this, it looks like Iraq and Afghanistan technically receive more money than Israel, but I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that we invaded those nations and continue to maintain a military presence on them. Other than those two, it looks like Israel is at the top. As such, whether Leon's point is considered accurate or not would be determined by whether or not you considered our spending on Iraq and Afghanistan to be normal foreign aid or not.
Another point I feel worth mentioning is that Egypt also receives a huge amount of American aid; not as much as Israel, but still a huge amount. None the less, that doesn't seem to drive Israel's opponents into a similar fury about Egypt. I strongly feel that, generally speaking, the "foreign aid argument" is a justification rather than a reason for opposition to Israel. |
My understanding of the aid to Egypt is that it is mostly developmental and humanitarian aid while aid to Israel is military. I, for the most part, I'm not in favor of giving military aid to other countries in peace time. I am for giving developmental aid if it is properly administered. |
Why do you think America gives so much aid to Egypt? Do you really think it's because we especially care about building schools in Egypt, as opposed to other parts of the world? Is it because Egypt is so much more deserving than many other countries? Of course not, and you know it.
Aid is aid. Giving aid of one type means the nation in question has to spend less of its own money on that category, allowing it to spend more money on other categories. As such, again, I feel this is justification rather than reason. Your politics put you at odds with Israel while leaving you comparatively indifferent to Egypt, so you actively seek out reasons to be against Israel while not doing the same with regards to Egypt.
Jump off the anti-Israeli bandwagon, Leon. Start judging Israel by the same standard you judge most other nations by. I think at heart you want to; intelligent people are naturally drawn to fairness and intellectual honesty. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| banMyth"]3. Holding other groups to different standards is disingenuous in this case. Hamas is supposed to be a democratically elected group...isn't that one of the reasons why people are bashing Israel for invading Gaza and not recognizing a government which was democratically elected? Can't have your cake and eat it too I'm afraid. |
Hamas wasn't the one who broke the peace agreement, it was other militant groups, some of which Hamas actively tried to prevent.
"The Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) recorded a total of 223 rockets and 139 mortar shells fired from Gaza during the lull, including 20 rockets and 18 mortar shells before November 4.[92] ITIC noted that while "Hamas was careful to maintain the ceasefire" until November 4 (when the ceasefire was "seriously eroded"), other Palestinian factions violated the lull by rocket and mortar shell fire, in some instance in defiance of Hamas.[93] The Israeli military also found several dozen improvised explosive devices used against its vehicles on the Gaza border and about a dozen cases of sniper fire from Gaza directed at its forces."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War
Can't make a point and have incorrect information too. Nice try. . |
What are you on about? Where in my post above did I say anything about Hamas being the one to break the ceasefire?
What was that you were saying about not making a point? |
I bolded the part where it was implied. Anyways Hamas kept the cease fire, Israel broke it. I don't understand the point about Hamas. Israel has been more antagonistic toward Hamas than Hamas has been towards it. There are certainly many hard line irrational members of Hamas, and many of their policies are counter productive, but many members are rational and willing to work with Israel as well. What is your point? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fox wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| 1. Israel is not the biggest recipient of American aid...not even close. Where do you come up with this nonsense? |
Hmm, according to this, it looks like Iraq and Afghanistan technically receive more money than Israel, but I suppose that has a lot to do with the fact that we invaded those nations and continue to maintain a military presence on them. Other than those two, it looks like Israel is at the top. As such, whether Leon's point is considered accurate or not would be determined by whether or not you considered our spending on Iraq and Afghanistan to be normal foreign aid or not.
Another point I feel worth mentioning is that Egypt also receives a huge amount of American aid; not as much as Israel, but still a huge amount. None the less, that doesn't seem to drive Israel's opponents into a similar fury about Egypt. I strongly feel that, generally speaking, the "foreign aid argument" is a justification rather than a reason for opposition to Israel. |
My understanding of the aid to Egypt is that it is mostly developmental and humanitarian aid while aid to Israel is military. I, for the most part, I'm not in favor of giving military aid to other countries in peace time. I am for giving developmental aid if it is properly administered. |
Why do you think America gives so much aid to Egypt? Do you really think it's because we especially care about building schools in Egypt, as opposed to other parts of the world? Is it because Egypt is so much more deserving than many other countries? Of course not, and you know it.
Aid is aid. Giving aid of one type means the nation in question has to spend less of its own money on that category, allowing it to spend more money on other categories. As such, again, I feel this is justification rather than reason. Your politics put you at odds with Israel while leaving you comparatively indifferent to Egypt, so you actively seek out reasons to be against Israel while not doing the same with regards to Egypt.
Jump off the anti-Israeli bandwagon, Leon. Start judging Israel by the same standard you judge most other nations by. I think at heart you want to; intelligent people are naturally drawn to fairness and intellectual honesty. |
I believe that there is a fundamental difference between military and non military aid, as well as giving aid to developed nation and a non developed nation. I have problems with how the aid is administered, not the aid itself. Aid is a diplomatic tool, I have no problem with it being that. Egypt is an important country. Egypt is corrupt with too much power consolidated with Mubarak. I have a problem with that.
I have a bigger problem with military aid given to Columbia than Egypt. I won't go off on that tangent. |
|
| Back to top |
| |
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
