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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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Angle: Rape victims should use their pregnancies as a way to turn lemons into lemonade.
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In her campaign to capture the Nevada Senate seat from Harry Reid (D), Tea Party maven Sharron Angle (R) has maintained a hardline view on abortion. Earlier this year, Angle insisted that women should not have control over their reproductive rights in cases of rape or incest, because it would �interfere with God�s �plan� for them.� In a more recent interview obtained by the Huffington Post�s Sam Stein, Angle refused to back down from her �pro-life sensibilities� and offered a more jarring take on rape victims. On the right-wing Alan Stock Show in June, Angle suggested that �a young girl raped by her father� deal with the �horrific situation� by making lemons into lemonade:
STOCK: What do you say then to a young girl, I am going to place it as he said it, when a young girl is raped by her father, let�s say, and she is pregnant. How do you explain this to her in terms of wanting her to go through the process of having the baby?
ANGLE: I think that two wrongs don�t make a right. And I have been in the situation of counseling young girls, not 13 but 15, who have had very at risk, difficult pregnancies. And my counsel was to look for some alternatives, which they did. And they found that they had made what was really a lemon situation into lemonade. Well one girl in particular moved in with the adoptive parents of her child, and they both were adopted. Both of them grew up, one graduated from high school, the other had parents that loved her and she also graduated from high school. And I�ll tell you the little girl who was born from that very poor situation came to me when she was 13 and said �I know what you did thank you for saving my life.� So it is meaningful to me to err on the side of life.
Angle is not shy in making glib remarks about Nevadans enduring hardship. In another interview last month, Angle determined that those without jobs are �spoiled� and that she is �not in the business of creating jobs.� Incidentally, June was also the month Nevada became �the new no.1� in the U.S. for unemployment. |
Slams Harry Reid for not bringing jobs to Nevada while emphatically stating that senators aren't responsible for creating jobs. Telling women they have no right to determination over their own body with regards to pregnancy, even in cases of rape. Supports privatization of Social Security (read: opening Social Security to being leeched into oblivion by quants and big banks), despite it being one of America's most successful social programs (and most fiscally responsible as well; the fact that they're able to foresee potential problems years away shows they're handling things in a responsible, effective fashion, giving us a lot of time to respond to said problems). Wants to destroy Medicare (despite it being more efficiently run than any private insurance company). Wants to destroy the Department of Education (I still don't understand this; people scream about how bad federal standards are for education, saying "one size fits all doesn't work!", but anyone who genuinely believes our public schools are one-size-fits-all simply isn't operating in reality).
Look, I'm not a huge fan of the health care bill Harry Reid helped pass either, but that doesn't mean we need this kind of insanity wandering the halls of our government. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| Fox wrote: |
| ANGLE: I think that two wrongs don�t make a right. |
Exactly right. Forcing a girl who was raped by her father to then be raped of her freedom definitely does not equal a right.
People like this really bother me. They take a valid and important moral stance (in this case, that abortion is a moral wrong), pervert it, use the perversion to gain notoriety, and in the process do tremendous damage to the original cause.
In a perfect world people like this would be recognized as fringe and subsequently ignored. Unfortunately, they are elevated to the level of heroes, both in the eyes of the simple-minded who might only support related positions and those who would use them to demonize all related positions. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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I am afraid that many children of rape would agree with her.
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| Have you ever considered how really insulting it is to say to someone, "I think your mother should have been able to abort you."? It's like saying, "If I had my way, you'd be dead right now." And that is the reality with which I live every time someone says they are pro-choice or pro-life "except in cases of rape" because I absolutely would have been aborted if it had been legal in Michigan when I was an unborn child, and I can tell you that it hurts. But I know that most people don't put a face to this issue -- for them abortion is just a concept -- with a quick cliche, they sweep it under the rug and forget about it. I do hope that, as a child conceived in rape, I can help to put a face, a voice, and a story to this issue. |
Also, http://www.mentalhelp.net/poc/view_doc.php?type=advice&id=1548&at=2&cn=58
and http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080109044212AAIxDbR. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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I would imagine many people aren't particularly interested in the idea of themselves, personally, being aborted. None the less, the idea that a woman should be forced to go through something she finds traumatic just because, later on, the child of such a "union" might benefit from it is ridiculous. None of us have a right to the utilization of another's body, regardless of what Miss Kiessling might believe.
If I had to choose between a world where women were free from enforced pregnancies, and a world with Miss Kiessling in it, unfortunately for her I'd choose the former. That's not to say I want her to be dead, but slavery is unacceptable, and she's essentially working in favor of rape victims being slaves for 9 months if they're unlucky enough to conceive, all because she herself might have been aborted if it had been legal. I understand she's likely too self-involved to see that, but that doesn't change the reality.
Would I like to have been aborted? Of course not. Do I feel my mother should have had the right to abort me if she felt it was necessary? Yes, I do.
(Your third link goes to a deleted Yahoo! question). |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:11 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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I'm not sure why you phrased the sentence the way you did, but choosing not to abort, no matter the circumstances of the conception, is always the better scenario. Unfortunately, the woman in this link has also perverted a good moral stance and squandered the oppurtunity to send a good message, that choosing to not abort a child of rape can have a positive outcome. Instead she has chosen the message that women should never have that option, a position that I'm fairly certain she couldn't consistently defend.
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This issue and people's opinions on it is a perfect example of one of the many reasons I believe we need mandatory philosophy and logic courses in public high schools. Politicians, the people that literally decide the conditions in which we live, are voted into and out of office based on issues like this by people who have very little understanding of the beliefs they ravenously defend. Meh, such is the way of politics in a democracy. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
...choosing not to abort, no matter the circumstances of the conception, is always the better scenario...
...This issue and people's opinions on it is a perfect example of one of the many reasons I believe we need mandatory philosophy and logic courses in public high schools... |
How is the first statement supported by the second? I see no logical process behind a statement like "choosing to carry to term is always a better choice than an abortion".
What about the case where the mother's health is at risk? How is it a good choice for the pregnant 13 year old raped by her father? How does logic or philosophy support either of these examples carrying their baby to term?
(I'm not sure why I ask since I know you really mean classes that support your ideology, rather than actually objective ones.) |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
How is the first statement supported by the second? I see no logical process behind a statement like "choosing to carry to term is always a better choice than an abortion".
What about the case where the mother's health is at risk? How is it a good choice for the pregnant 13 year old raped by her father? How does logic or philosophy support either of these examples carrying their baby to term? |
I suggest you reread my post, and this time pay attention to any variation on the word 'choose.'
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| (I'm not sure why I ask since I know you really mean classes that support your ideology, rather than actually objective ones.) |
Now it's my turn to be curious: how many philosophy classes have you attended that supported a particular ideology? I admit I've had one (and thankfully only one). Fortunately, that class was one that was open to frequent discussion, so there was at least some merit in arguing with the recent graduate-turned-professor. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
How is the first statement supported by the second? I see no logical process behind a statement like "choosing to carry to term is always a better choice than an abortion".
What about the case where the mother's health is at risk? How is it a good choice for the pregnant 13 year old raped by her father? How does logic or philosophy support either of these examples carrying their baby to term? |
I suggest you reread my post, and this time pay attention to any variation on the word 'choose.' |
Post re-read, thoroughly. You think that logic and/or philosophy classes will help and encourage people to make the right choices, that's fine, but you also seem to think that not aborting, no matter the circumstances, is the right choice. Logically, if logic and philosophy classes help people make the right choice, and X is the right choice, logic and philosophy classes support X. Why do you think that logic and philosophy classes are against abortion? |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| You think that logic and/or philosophy classes will help and encourage people to make the right choices |
 No, that's not at all what I think nor what I said. Though I never said this (or anything to the contrary) explicitly, I think philosophy and logic classes will help people form logically consistent and more thoughtful and possibly more informed opinions.
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| that's fine, but you also seem to think that not aborting, no matter the circumstances, is the right choice. |
Again, no, I never said that. A rape victim who chooses to carry to term despite her circumstances has made a better choice, as it does not result in the unfortunate death of an innocent. However, that does not mean that choosing to not carry to term is the wrong choice.
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| Why do you think that logic and philosophy classes are against abortion? |
Well, a logic class would never be 'against abortion,' as that's not within its specific realm of study. Philosophy classes as well should never be 'against abortion,' as a class explicitly supporting that position would have then changed from a teaching experience to a preaching experience. It (well, morality and ethics courses) should present, discuss, and critique arguments from all sides of an issue. The teacher's opinions should never be taught as irreproachable.
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That was three sad faces. If I was a panda instead of a goat, you would have made me a very sad panda. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| Philosophy classes as well should never be 'against abortion,' as a class explicitly supporting that position would have then changed from a teaching experience to a preaching experience. It (well, morality and ethics courses) should present, discuss, and critique arguments from all sides of an issue. The teacher's opinions should never be taught as irreproachable. |
This is what I hated about my environmental ethics course. All the material we covered was from a particular side of the issue, and there was very little real opportunity for discussion, as the professor was very clearly biased in favor of the strongly environmentalist side, and most of the other students were as well.
I'm a moderate environmentalist myself, so my exasparation should speak volumes. When the class material is presenting ideas like "Rivers have natural rights," but not even entertaining the notion that, just maybe, human rights are paramount, it becomes hard to stomache. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| (Your third link goes to a deleted Yahoo! question). |
Weird. If I click on it here, it goes to a deleted question. But you can still get it via Google. Anyway, here is what it says:
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Best Answer - Chosen by Voters
I told my daughter when she was 13. I was open and honest.
NO counselors were involved.
If there is a good relationship between mom and child, things will go okay. My daughter comes to me when she wants to talk or has any questions. She knows what rape is. She knows that not all men are like that and that her dad (my husband) is nothing like that and loves her very much, which is why he adopted her.
This is a very very private and individual matter. There is no right way or wrong way. No outside person will be able to tell either one the best way to go about it. Only the mom will truly be able to know what is right to tell the child and how much and when. And even then it could be wrong, but it might not be.
The child has to be mature enough to know what sex is. What love is. What rape is. To understand that they are not at fault by any means. And to understand that not all men are like that, just a small small part of the world's men are monsters.
What works for one won't work for another. Going by other's experiences won't help the decision any. I've tried. The mom will know when it's right. She will know it's time and how much to tell.
My heart goes out to her. I Just told my daughter who is 13 a few months ago. Both of us feel so much better that it's out there. The deep dark secret is finally out there and no longe rin hiding from her. She had a lot of unanswered questions and her curiosity answered when I told her. Thing made sense to her. It was a huge relief to both her and I to get it out there. I never dreamed it would go like this and have this feeling afterwards.
She once in a while will ask me about him. He and i had dated before he raped me. I answer her honestly and not biased. I can do that now since it's been so long since then.
* 3 years ago
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Sharron Angle: Crazy or Super Crazy? |
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| Fox wrote: |
| This is what I hated about my environmental ethics course. All the material we covered was from a particular side of the issue, and there was very little real opportunity for discussion, as the professor was very clearly biased in favor of the strongly environmentalist side, and most of the other students were as well. |
I got the same treatment in intro to moral philosophy, and the severity of it almost killed my interest in philosophy completely.
I remember approaching the professor a few weeks into the course after I noticed what she was doing and presented her with my concerns. She said she was intentionally presenting only strong arguments from her ideology (pick any issue and she adopted the traditional 'far left' viewpoint). Her reason? Our university being in the deep South apparently meant all of the students were in dire need of exposure to her innovative and irrefutable ideas.  She was the perfect incarnation of the most hellish liberal arts professor from a right-winger's nightmare!
Needless to say, I voiced my concerns to my adviser and never took another course taught by her. |
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