Korean Job Discussion Forums

[raewon]

I think how to master who and whom will plague me until I'm six feet under.
Could someone please let me know if "whom" can be used in the following sentence or not:

I worked hard and become the man whom I wanted to be.

I tried rewording the sentence to apply the old "he/him" trick but that doesn't seem to give me a definite answer.

Hopefully someone can help me with this one.

Thank you if you are that someone!

[schwa]

"Whom" is dying.

Conversationally, it often sounds hifalutin even when its technically correct. Its a goner. It'll linger on in a few set phrases ("to whom it may concern," "for whom the bell tolls") but outside of very formal writing & Korean english tests it has lost most of its traction.

No big loss.

[raewon]

Thanks for your reply, and I agree with you 100%. However, I still need help with the question.

[T-J]

[raewon]

Thanks T-J! Looking at that sentence "He worked hard and become the man he wanted to be." "who" would be correct. But now I have a question about the he/him test! I didn't think it was a substitution test but one of rewording.

I worked hard and become the man (whom I wanted to be).

(whom I wanted to be) >> I wanted to be he/him.

And therefore whom.

Am I delirious?

[T-J]

I need to back up a bit, because the example I gave with "he/him" did not match the original sentence. Sorry.

I worked hard to become the man (who/whom) I wanted to be.

I substituted "he" for "I".

I did this because "he/him" can't be substituted in this sentence.

He worked hard to become the man (he/him) he wanted to be.

However "that" fits perfectly.

He worked hard to become the man that he wanted to be.
I worked hard to become the man that I wanted to be.

I believe, and correct me please if I'm wrong, that can only be replaced with who and not whom. So in this case who, is the correct word.

[CentralCali]

[raewon]

Thanks for both of your replies.

Then would it be safe to say that "who" is correct from a prescriptive view and "whom" could be considered 'correct' from a descriptive view?

[FMPJ]

When your who/whom is part of multiple nested clauses, you make it fit the clause it begins. So the answer is "whom." And yes, "whom" is rapidly disappearing from English, as well it should. The tests will take some time to catch up to reality, of course.

[raewon]

FMPJ - thanks for your reply. But now I'm confused again - are you sure "whom" is correct in that sentence? T-J's and CentralCali's logic both seem sound. I was ready to accept "who" (prescriptive) and "whom" (descriptive - possibly).

* Actually, I'm trying to build a case that "whom" can be used. I have no qualms with admitting that I'm wrong but at the same time it would be nice to have some defense.

[CentralCali]

Descriptivist: Whom is gone. And unlamented.

Prescriptivist: As I posted above.

[raewon]

Thanks! Now I just have to figure out what FMPJ meant by:

[FMPJ]

It's a three step process.

1. Make it into a question using "who" (in this case, you have to select the clause "who" initiates): Who did you want to be?

2. Answer the question with "he" or "him," whichever fits (your ear will not fail you on this): I wanted to be him

3. If "he," then "who." If "him," then "whom."

[raewon]

Thank you for your reply and clear explanation. However, it does go against what others have said (and I'm not saying that you are wrong). Actually, the process that you have outlined is similar to how I also learned to apply the he/him test.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply again.

[FMPJ]